Trusting the Unschooling Process (and our teens) with Annelise Little

Julieta (01:34)

Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Unschooling Lifestyle. I am so excited to have Annelise Little, and she is the podcast host of the Art of Unschooling

welcome, Annelise. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Annelise (01:49)

Thank you for having me. I've been very excited about this call.

Julieta (01:51)

Yes, yes. I wanted to bring you in because Annelise grew up Unschooled

I wanted to bring her perspective on

would you be so kind to share a little bit about your experience as a child and how your mom got to choose Unschooling for you and as a way to raise you?

Annelise (02:10)

Absolutely. So my mom homeschooled, she did a correspondence course through high school. So she was already familiar with the concept of doing school in alternative ways. And then when I was born, ⁓ she was quite young at the time, but she knew that she didn't really want to send me to the same institutions that she had had a lot of problems with. So she didn't start off thinking that she was going to be doing

radical unschooling. We didn't really know the term for it back then. So she just kept me home and got a bunch of different curriculums and just tried to see what worked. And then when she realized that she was part of kind of an alternative community, she reached out to other people. We were in the Midwest at the time, which had a really big alternative schooling community. So she started reaching out to different people and found play groups and parent support networks.

And I believe she found a lot of this through La Leche League, which she was part of at the time. So I never ended up going to a public school. I haven't been for a single day of my life. I tried a private school once when I was 10 for one year, which was, it was, it was fun. It was very different to interact with a lot of kids who were fresh out of the public school system because

At this point, I had been part of several unschooling co-ops. So I was mostly used to kids who were homeschooled or unschooled. So being around a lot of kids suddenly that were from the public school system, it was very different because they were used to different ways of living and different ways of expressing themselves and having to stay very self-contained. And this kind of segues into what we're talking about because

A lot of the kids here were just turning 13 and 14 and trying to figure themselves out as teenagers.

It was difficult to try to figure out how to relate to these kids because they were used to such a controlled life and they weren't used to taking a lot of initiative. So sometimes they would stumble a lot in our classes because they were the classes were run by a college professor and he was wanting us to take a lot more initiative with our learning. And they had they had trouble with that because they were used to just being told, OK, here's our curriculum. Here's what we're learning. Here's what I want you to research and write about.

And now they're gonna ask questions like, what do you wanna learn about? What do you think we should research? What books do you wanna read? And I was usually one of the first people to answer just because I was very used to this, being able to decide what I wanted to learn. So.

Julieta (04:25)

That is so fascinating though. So from early on, it feels like we are being told one way to be one way, do not think for yourself. But then a few years down the road, we're expected to do the same thing that we were told not to do. So what a contradiction to life, but you saw that early on. Did you talk to your mom about it? Did you share that with her?

It's like, how is this possible? What's happening here?

Annelise (04:56)

Yeah, well, we did talk a lot about it. So I've always been very close with my mom. we always talked about the people I was meeting and the things I was doing, because we had a very open communication household, which was really valuable to me even then. And now, especially as I'm older, and have so many people who don't have that. I'm like, wow, that really is the key to everything. mean, without solid trust and communication.

it's really hard to have a close relationship with someone. So we did talk about that. And she's always been very compassionate towards me and to other children. So she always tried to explain, well, these are the circumstances that they've been growing up with. you know, someone who had gone to public school herself, she's like, so here's the kind of things that we're taught and expected. And I was, let's see, I was 10 and 11 at the time.

So my life had been all homeschooling and unschooling, except for the couple of friends I made through other activities that had gone to school, but it wasn't really something we talked about. And then all of a sudden, during this developmental change and I was meeting all these kids who had gone to school, I was learning about things like having to ask permission to eat or to go to the bathroom and being forced to sit for hours on end without being able to get up and exercise. And these were such foreign ideas to me.

I was like, how does this work? mean, okay, this makes sense why they're having a hard time. That sounds really difficult to have to ask permission for everything.

Julieta (06:24)

That is fascinating though. is, and that's, so you were young, you were like, you said 13, know, 12, 13 years old as you start to realize this, that you are quite different, that you're being given a freedom that is not available to everyone, right?

Annelise (06:41)

Well, it started as early as 10 because that's when I went into my first, uh, my one year in a private school. And it was a rewarding year for me not to go back afterwards because, um, I still felt like the adults at the time who ran it were still looking at the kids and teens in the school in more of a, um, a punitive way, which is.

I feel like that's normal from a teacher's perspective. And I know there's a lot of teachers who really love the kids that they work with and they really want to do their best by them. But there's kind of a cultural standard for, I am the adult, I am the authority, you are the kid, it's my job to teach you to get you to learn, rather than looking at learning as just this innate process that happens in our minds and it's driven by our interests.

Julieta (07:35)

Do you feel like we're moving into a new direction or very slowly?

Annelise (07:40)

I swear it's slower than I think I would like. I do think that we're moving into a more, gosh, I would like to say a more compassionate direction towards kids and teens. I know you've talked about this on your podcast before, there's been a lot more homeschoolers and unschoolers since the lockdowns because of COVID.

During that time, was fascinating for me as a lifelong unschooler to start seeing posts from parents who were like, my God, my kid is home all the time now. I don't know what to do. And it was wild because growing up on my side, it was always a very purposeful thing you did. No one accidentally unschooled.

Julieta (08:18)

that's actually what I love about it.

Annelise (08:20)

I had one very close friend who went to public school. And

I was very surprised by the way one of her parents started talking about her after she started being a teenager. And it was this, this coupling of

complaining and also projecting the things that they needed to achieve by a certain point in time. The things you have to achieve through high school and then be ready for it at 18, be ready to move out, go to college, pick your career, figure out your entire life, be completely financially self-sufficient. And I remember thinking at the time and I was looking at how stressed out my friend was and I was like, well, when was this supposed to happen?

My friend has been in public school for eight hours a day, five days a week for what, 13 years, isn't it, until 18. So when was the time for her to find out who she was?

Julieta (09:15)

wise.

Annelise (09:16)

how can she figure out what she wants to do? It was shocking to me and I heard a lot of those complaints.

And all I could think was, kids must be so stressed out.

And it feels like their parents, instead of trying to find the root cause of that stress,

All there is is complaints and expectations was very shocking to me. Um, when I was, you know, 14, 15, 16 by 17, I'd kind of gotten used to it. And I was just trying to reach out to my teen friends and trying to give them support and let them know that, it's okay. If you don't have everything figured out.

We're still kids. We're not supposed to know what the rest of the be, you know?

Julieta (10:01)

That it yeah.

Annelise (10:02)

person who had always been told that, you know, it's okay to learn, it's okay to make mistakes. And that's how you learn. And you should live your life following your passions. Suddenly being in this environment that it's all about that, you know, that college prep and that academic stress. Yeah. And at the same time, your hormones are going crazy. You're having emotional meltdowns all the time. Your parents think that there's something wrong with you. You think there's something wrong with you. And

I just felt like the entire thing is so unnecessarily overcomplicated. Because not much has changed, you know?

Julieta (10:33)

Absolutely love this. Yes, I do agree that adults love to complicate things and growing up in Mexico, I didn't really have the pressure to move out at 18 because Latin American culture is that, parents really support their children through college. Like we don't have the pressure of having to become financially responsible for our bills and our tuition the way it is here in the States. Like I feel like here

you're racing towards the 18 ⁓ years away so you can just move out and never bother me again. I do see the pressure and like you say unnecessary pressure of

of these young humans to have it all figure out by 18, which sounds impossible.

nowadays you are a big advocate.

for self-directed education, for respect, for autonomy. And as you navigate the different online communities, I love seeing your answers, but what do you see from the bigger perspective on how people are treating teens now? And like you said, the pandemic really brought a lot of homeschoolers and unschoolers into the picture, but what do you see the teens are still?

needing from adults and that the adults were still getting it wrong sometimes.

Annelise (11:54)

So I guess what I see the most, and I see this in homeschooling and unschooling communities, sometimes just as much as in public school communities. There's a lot of posts that I end up commenting on that are talking about wanting to figure out how to get their teens into college and how to help them succeed. And the word I see a lot is integration. How do I get my kid to integrate? How do I know that when they

you know, turn 18 and they move into the adult world that they're gonna be able to integrate. And personally, my biggest problem with that is that I grew up, and a lot of my friends grew up like this too, thinking that the entire point of why we were unschooled is because the way the world is shaped right now isn't working. And to me, that doesn't stop at the school system. To me, that goes into

this system we have of being completely dependent on colleges and universities for any job that could help us make a living. And it goes into the workforce, know, the corporate workforce of having to conform to everyone else's rules, to a company's rules, to a lifestyle's rules. And I always thought growing up that the point was to be different, not to integrate

but to challenge the status quo. mean, for a parent choosing the unschooling lifestyle, and of course, I'm saying this from the outside and just from talking to a lot of, know, unschooling parents who didn't start out as unschoolers themselves, it's an active choice you make as an adult with your child, but as someone who grows up in it, who doesn't completely know a different way of life,

not a choice, it's just who we So it's not a, we don't think of it as, this was our schooling choice. This is just our life. This is how we've been brought up to live. We've been brought up to take initiative and to ask a lot of questions and to learn in a way that works best for us. So getting to the point of being a teen, all of sudden there's all these questions from

the adults around us, okay, well, what are you gonna do now? Okay, well, so you've been unschooled, great. What's your plan going forward? How are you gonna be an adult just like everyone else? And I see these comments and questions and things that I've even been told from other people and my response is always, well, I don't really wanna be like everyone else. I don't wanna be like every other young adult because I wasn't like every other kid. So I'm going to keep living my life

as a unschooler the same way of challenging the status quo and asking questions. And I think that that's a scary thing for parents to think about because they don't want life to be hard for their kids. I'm gonna take a compassionate look at it here. They want their kids to be able to be safe and self-sufficient.

we know who we are now. Is that going to be OK?

for the rest of our lives? And is that going to be able to keep changing and developing the way it when we grew up? And so all these parents around us saying, well, now you have to figure out how to be like everyone else. It's kind of like having a bucket of cold water dumped on your head.

So my response when I hear parents talking about that is always, well, hold on, what changed? Because free learning doesn't stop when you hit the legal age of adulthood. Your brain's development doesn't stop. Your interests don't stop. So, okay, we worry about safety and security, but as unschoolers, we shouldn't have to worry about that more than any other person. And those are things that will come with time and with trying to figure out

like the same way everyone else does. But to me, this concept of, well, how are you just gonna fit into the world? Well, I thought that we were here to change the world, to present a different option, a different opportunity for how people can live together and how relationships in a family can work and how relationships in a workplace can work. I thought it was all wrapped up into one big thing, which is we're here to be different.

Julieta (15:44)

⁓ my goodness, this is so juicy. And this is why I love doing the podcast because this is for everyone else out there. But this is also for me because I love this perspective. then honestly, honestly, honestly right now, I never really thought about it like that the way you just put it because so here I am, right? I started traditional homeschooling. Then we are.

You know i and i say and you can go back to the beginning of my podcast the Unschooling Lifestyle goes beyond academic freedom ready goes it goes. It goes towards freedom of how you eat how you manage your day but it's also very different

We all work, it's not them or just me, it's all of us making decisions together and living differently. But then, we see the world changing. if they're living differently between.

their ages that they're supposed to be in K through 12. So that lifestyle should not stop So here they are, they will be breaking the mold as to what careers, jobs they will choose to.

continue to live a fulfilling life. And I think this is where my friend Marissa, says, our kids will be doing jobs that have not been created yet. Like you say, you're here to change the world and to have a continuation.

of asking questions, living by curiosity. Okay, this is so juicy. Like I can't get over how important this is. And I love that you brought this up because this is, right. People ask, they have all this freedom, but they're like, okay, you're hitting the mark for 17, 18. How do I make a transcript so you can go to college? in adding to this, you often,

talk about redefining what success is for families. you elaborate a little bit on how you put this for other people?

Annelise (17:50)

Yeah, sure. So.

What I always start with is, yes, I've gotten jobs, several. Yes, it was relatively easy, as easy as everyone else's.

I did get into college. I did not continue with it, but I didn't have any trouble in my classes.

So what I try to tell people is, those things that you're worried about, those are easy because between Google and the people that you talk to that have gone to college and say, okay, here's what you need to do. These things are all easy to learn. I didn't write an essay or a paper or do anything like that until I was in my first college class with my first assignment. And I just looked at the reference paper and I said, okay, that's the format. And then it was more about the content for me, which was based on my interest.

And that's what I was used to. So none of that was a struggle. So the first thing I always try to tell people is don't panic about that side of things because that will just happen naturally. It has for me. It has for all of my peers I was so blessed to be connected with other teens and kids my age who were unschooled because now as a young adult, I am part of this generation. He has gone through that whole process of being unschooled as a kid and then a teen.

and then going into starting to get jobs and get into the young adult scene more. And so all of the other people I know, everyone has a different story of how they've done it or what they've done, but we're all okay. We're all fine. We're as okay as everyone else is.

Julieta (19:11)

you guys are probably better, none of you have the mental added stress.

Annelise (19:16)

of course, I can only say this from the outside perspective, but I have seen fewer

crisis of identity

unschoolers that I've seen in kids who go

Julieta (19:24)

Yeah.

So you're, so you tell people, don't worry about that. Okay. So what is, and then after that, what are you writing?

Annelise (19:31)

So.

that I start talking about the the root cause of this anxiety that parents are trying to express. I'm like okay so we've established that jobs in college will be fine so what are we really worried about though? Are we worried about them being social? Are we worried about them being independent? Are we worried about their safety? Because these questions are very rooted in anxiety and the core always comes back to

Will my kid be okay in the best circumstances? But what I also see, and this is rarer, I think, in homeschooling and unschooling parents, because again, it's a very intentional choice to do that with your child and to be close to them in that way.

But our culture is centered around not just, okay, how do we be self-sufficient? It's also about status. What kind of job we have and how successful that job is. Okay, so a college professor might be considered above a fifth grade teacher, or a scientist would be considered above a cashier at a grocery store.

there's a pecking order of how we consider successful jobs. And part of it, I think, is social status and part of it is financial status. And so for me, I have to sit there and question, well, are these goals worthy of your kids? Do you want your kids to grow up and only want to achieve as far as do I make enough money and

Am I socially acceptable? Do I fall higher on that pecking order of what my job is? And I know the financial side is always a tricky one because we do very unfortunately right now need money to survive to some point. That's the scary part. But if that's the case, there are creative ways to try and figure that out. And I think what gets in a lot of people's way is this concern of

that social pecking order and how that affects what we see is acceptable to make money. So for me, my passions have always sat in fields that are harder to make money on, such as advocacy, which I'm very, very passionate about my spiritual work. And these are things that are difficult to be financially self-sufficient on. So I find other ways of making money that maybe they're not

the passion of my life, but they enable me to live out my passion. And I think that needs to be something that's a lot more accepted. It's not about, well, find the job you like so that you can devote your entire life to it. It's about find jobs that work for you so you can figure out what you want to devote your life to.

Julieta (22:02)

my goodness, you guys, this is so powerful. I love this so much because it's so true. And I feel like we see this romanticized version of following your passion and fully living out of your passion And if you ask anybody

that is a creator or that lives out their passion. you will find that there were years where they didn't make money from their passion. So this, consensus that it should be, instantaneous, and then we are just going to completely go on that path, it is not sustainable.

having that ability to say, I can do this so I can live out my passion. That is a sustainable way to navigate through life and then go through the freedom without attaching yourself to that social pecking order that you're talking about. That is fantastic. Good Lord, I am so happy about this. This is so powerful.

So when you write all of this, it really is asking a lot of questions and they're not questions about your child or they are questions about what we feel as parents and why is it that we're asking our children to do X, Y, or Z, like to choose a college to you can live out your freedom.

you know, K through 12, but then after that, you need to go back and assimilate again These are a lot of questions and I find in my work that that is the one thing that we are not really looking into right away. So we wanna know curriculum, we wanna know how to,

grow successful children how do we go into online school? How do we do this?

Do you get the resistance to look inwards as far as like, what are they looking for?

Annelise (23:50)

Yes, absolutely. I have definitely gotten a lot of resistance to my comments and I always try to be as compassionate as I can and I try to explain it from the point of view of like, look, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with you. I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong. There's urgency because you care about your child and because you know that the world is a difficult place to navigate. But in my experience, it doesn't work to put stress on you

my mom was always ready never to put any pressure on me, but I've always taken a lot of initiative. So sometimes that means I took on excess pressures that I didn't need to because I cared about representing my lifestyle and figuring out how to make it work. And then I finally relaxed a bit more in my teen years, because I met other teens my age or older who had already gotten to that point.

and didn't have that same or urgency and they were a lot more relaxed. So I started to relax and then I turned 18 and nothing changed. There wasn't this big world changing event where suddenly I had to know what I was doing more than I did when I was 17. And it was this big exhale of, oh, my world didn't crash and burn.

Julieta (24:54)

Wow.

Annelise (25:01)

because I didn't immediately know what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

Julieta (25:04)

wanted to do. Yeah, that is fascinating.

I feel like in the unschooling and I don't see it a lot nowadays. But once I start share that we homeschool,

they automatically the first thing that a lot of people do is they start questioning, like this need to know that my children know something. I still have this

I don't want to say resistance, but I feel it, right? Because it's also, because from the outside, sometimes it's like, if my children know, it means that I am a good parent.

So at what point do adults stop doing that for you?

Annelise (25:38)

⁓ so I always had a lot of people post questions to me. So the first question I got out, do you know as much as your peers or anything like that? I was six and I was on a playground and I got the very classic and I talked to other unschoolers about this. the one thing we can all agree on is that everyone has gotten the what's two times two question at one point in their life. It's like this old.

litmus test that as long as we know what two times two is, we're keeping up, we're okay. And of course, the questions of all it's hysterical to me that there are these kinds that people from the outside, they hear that you're unschooled. And it's like they start to panic. Yeah, don't think they really know. And I certainly don't know why when it's happening. But there's this panic where they're like, ⁓ but do you know all these things? Well, yeah. And you know, if I don't, I'll figure it out if

if I ever need to. So I was getting a lot of questions like that.

Julieta (26:28)

That is so funny. ⁓

Annelise (26:30)

And yes, and there's absolutely comedic moments, but there's also really hard moments. There were parents who wouldn't let their kids play with me on the playground sometimes if they found out that I was homeschooled because they thought that I would be too rowdy or have no discipline or be a bad influence. And that was a really difficult thing to come to terms with when I was seven or eight.

And that would always be a long conversation with my mom on the way home about, you know, why did it happen? Why does this make me different? I know that it was her as a mother who knew all the reasons why she was choosing this lifestyle with me, but also to see how other people treat me for it. And, you know, what we talked about was, well,

some people live with a lot more fear. And she was always very open with me about her journey as a parent and how being around other unschooling parents really helped kind of reinforce that, we're all okay. We're all okay. We're all doing the right thing here. We're all just trying to figure it out. And that helped me to know that she was still going through a journey figuring things out, because it made me feel like I could still

go through a journey of figuring things out. And that hasn't changed up into being a young adult. That is still one of my greatest resources is knowing that we have that kinship of being able to talk to each other. in terms of the questions, you're right, even as a young adult, it's a battle sometimes to try to explain your lifestyle to other people. And what I get with a lot of these parents is

there's the fear base of I want my kids to be okay, but there is that other side where they talk about, ⁓ I'm not sure how to handle a situation with my in-laws or even with my parents or my neighbor with my my kids, friends, parents, because they have all these questions, they want to make sure we're keeping up with all this stuff. And, sometimes they want to know, okay, exactly. How do I do this? How do I give proof?

Julieta (28:25)

Yeah, it's like, yeah.

Annelise (28:26)

as well.

Julieta (28:27)

I am because it hasn't been created. There's no point, there's not a point of reference, So I really admire your mom and I haven't met her, like on video because you live in a different state, but I have a lot of respect for her for being able to see beyond because when she started, when they started, it was kind of like ahead of their time in terms of unschooling and it was a very traditional way of homeschooling.

And it was really almost just doing school at home. So this idea of giving children the respect that they deserve, and freedom and autonomy and being able to have conversations with them, it it made it still sometimes feels revolutionary, even though it's our inherent right. So I love that, that she was able to share that.

path and not be like, have it all figured out so you should too. Because I feel like we never do. There's always something changing. So it's so interesting. But I wanted to ask you, and I haven't come across this too often, but I have seen posts on different groups from teenagers themselves that they're having such a hard time in the school system.

and they know, homeschooling. So they just know that there's a different way. And they are literally asking for help because they themselves want to share with their parents that they just can't take it anymore. they need something different,

Annelise (30:00)

I haven't come across it on social media. I've come across it more personally. I've had friends or family or acquaintances who especially after meeting me have said, I really want to talk to my parents about that.

It's a really heartbreaking situation for me because these are obviously kids who have worked very hard at understanding why they're having a hard time and have worked through all of the hormones and the emotions and the pressures that are on them to be able to self-actualize and try to advocate for their needs and say, okay, this wasn't working, so I found something else and this is what I want to do. And to me,

especially if you're living from a more pressured lifestyle, that should kind of be the goal. Someone who knows himself enough to say, okay, this isn't working for me. And then to say, okay, there's something else though that I would like to try. So I I think that as a teenager doing that and having to challenge your parents and challenge how you grew up, that's a very brave thing to do. I mean, that's hard to do as a grownup.

but doing it as a teen.

I so hope that they find what they need, but it's difficult because it kind of comes back to this. Okay, how do you get adults on board with this? And I try to put myself out there as much as possible as a resource just for parents to see, she's okay. She's alive. She's not destitute. She's not miserable.

Ha!

Julieta (31:19)

My goodness, yeah.

Annelise (31:21)

we're checking,

Julieta (31:22)

And it brings in like a great segue into the work that you do and what would you tell parents that are struggling, because when we went through our transition in 2020, I feel like I had the luxury of time because the world was shut down. So I had to be home with myself, my feelings, my emotions,

so I had all that, time to process that. my kids were younger,

But, a lot of people are coming into this way of life because they physically and emotionally and spiritually cannot take it anymore.

So what would you say to the parents of teens as they start their journey

Annelise (31:59)

Well, it's a really different process ⁓ coming into unschooling from the public school system as opposed to getting to start there more from the beginning, especially as teenagers, because it is a very, very tumultuous time for everyone emotionally. So you already have everything in flux. And then to change to being in closer quarters and getting to know each other more. And I did have families come into my group and sometimes they would come and stay, sometimes they would come and go.

who had that situation, who either through the middle school or high school years decided, you know what, we just, can't do this anymore. Either there was an incident or others just worsening of mental health or sometimes there was just enough exposure to something being different. They were like, I never really thought about the fact that there was a different choice. And now I want to see what that looks like. And there's so many parents and these are some of the most common posts I see that struggle with that.

they have their kids home, they're like, okay, what now? Also, why doesn't my kid want to do anything? They just want to sit home and play video games or watch stuff all day. And I don't know what to do. This isn't what the TikTok video showed of all these, you know, these cool farming, unschooling parents trucking around the wilderness, camping together and, you know, traveling and you're so funny.

Julieta (33:11)

But it's true, she is absolutely right. You see all these videos and whatever about people traveling.

I was actually just reading a book yesterday about the world's schooling journey of a family and some of the pages start with

⁓ paragraphs from a journal from one of the teens and I'm like, okay, if I didn't know any better, this would put me in like a sad mode because my kids are not writing about the temples which we have been to in Japan. So the social media, out there does not show the hard pieces.

you're coming into this life completely dysregulated. So yeah, it's so true You're so funny though. Okay, so carry on. What else would you say to them?

Annelise (33:50)

you're totally right about the dysregulation and that that leads me to my next point that either people like me who have seen it enough times or people who have been through it or just done a lot of research on and talk about the deschooling period and how that is a very underutilized concept and the first thing I always tell people I usually leave very short paragraphs for most of these because they're like okay what do we do and I'm always like okay first look into deschooling

then look into unschooling and then I'm here with any questions you've got. Because a de-schooling process is the idea that you are having to de-program your brain, not just your kids, but yours as a parent. You're having to de-program your brain from a structure that has told you what to do with your child from the time that they've been four or five. And has also told you what to do with yourself since the time that you were four or five.

and the systems of judgment about whether or not you're doing it right, whether or not you're doing enough. Because that's such terrible pressure to have on parents. Are you doing enough for your child? And if you make a mistake, they're going to be ruined forever. And none of that is true. Not a single bit. And what I always respected the most about my mom is when she said, OK, I made a mistake because I got emotional or I didn't know what I was doing.

let's figure out a way to move forward together. That was always the point that I'm like, right, okay, we're good, we're a team, we're together on this, we'll be okay. And that's something that parents aren't really allowed to do. They're not allowed to say, you know, I'm not completely sure if I've got this figured out or, you know, maybe what I did yesterday wasn't the best course of action because there's so much pressure that if you will, if you make a mistake, that's it. And it's not true.

which means that this de-schooling period, no, it won't have anything bad come out of it if your kid plays video games all day. First of all, that's developmentally normal for all teens is to find an interest and to get really, really sucked into it and get really absorbed in that passion. That's okay. That's good because that's what you want them to do when they get older and they're an adult is to recognize when they're passionate about something and say, wow, I am really ready to devote so much to this passion.

That's great. That should be everything that you want from them. And because of social stigmas on stuff like media or video games, yeah, sometimes that can be hard. But you know, when my grandmother was a kid, she loved reading more than anything else in the world. And sometimes she would stay up all night doing it. So it's not about the platform of passion. It's about the passion itself. And I think it's a good thing for passion to kind of take over your life because

There's nothing worse than feeling like you can't figure out what you're passionate about. And so in this de-schooling period, you have that, but you also have the fact that you have these kids who have these nervous systems that have been completely bombarded by pressure and stress from the time that they're little and standards and comparisons to everyone else around them. They need to sleep. They need to reset their brains. They need to learn how to relax. And they need to know that you're not gonna be punitive to them the way a teacher would be.

because of something that they want to do. And I think that's a really difficult thing is that when parents start homeschooling, oftentimes they go, okay, so now I'm the parent and the teacher. Well, and the tricky thing is, well, a teacher, if a teacher is mean to a kid or if a child feels hurt by something a teacher says, it's a little easier to write off because it's not also the primary caregiver who's the center of your world that you base

whether or not you're good enough intrinsically on. But you do that for your parents. if your parents are a teacher and gets punitive the same way and starts putting all these pressures and expectations that they think a teacher should, then suddenly it becomes more of a threatening situation. Not physically, but it's emotional taxing then to say, yeah, my parent is also my teacher now.

Julieta (37:24)

Yeah.

Annelise (37:33)

and expect me to do these things and now what I need to do for myself isn't okay and who I need to be isn't okay. In fact that I'm, yeah. So that's another thing that I try to point out is like, look, you're still a parent and that still needs to be the first and foremost. And what they need to know is that you see them and you accept them. And this is the most difficult.

part of the process that I've heard other lifelong unschooling parents talk about it, because no matter who you are, you'll probably go through this. Trusting the process and trusting that your child will figure out what they need. And it doesn't mean completely hands off, leave them alone.

Julieta (38:12)

Yeah, it doesn't mean neglect you're on your own. Like, I think that some people may may see that as like free range parenting, but no, unschooling

it's very hands-on.

Annelise (38:21)

Yeah, I mean, I would say one of the most important things because this made a big difference when I was growing up is unschooling parents, supporting each other. That's always a really big thing because you need community because this is hard. And like I mentioned earlier, there's all this media and stuff that make it look really wonderful. And it is.

Loved my lifestyle. I wholeheartedly recommend it to everyone. I'm very content with how I got to grow up and I'm I'm very lucky that I had a mom that did so much work on herself and how she viewed children and how she viewed the world and being brave enough not to Cout how to what other people told her she should be doing as a parent that was I give her, you know

complete credit for how difficult that must have been. And the support that she had from other parents was really important. I think it's really important to support each other. I would also say, because I grew up with my dad not being very supportive of the lifestyle, supportive enough to facilitate it financially, but he was a big source of pressure for me. And

That was very difficult growing up feeling like I had complete freedom on one side and pressure on the other. And I think that it's always hard when you have a divided household about whether or not you're growing up the right way. And I know a lot of other kids who have had that problem. In some cases, even being forced to go to school later on because of a divorce or something and one parent petitions to the courts to have them go to school.

And that's usually where courts will fall is with something more known and traditional. And that's been a really hard transition for kids. So I would say, you know, if you have a spouse that is really into unschooling and you're not as much, try to understand that, it is an active thing and your kids will remember what you thought about it.

because it's a very personal thing to us. It's not just our schooling choice, it's how we're growing up and how we're being expected to live in the world. And we really need that support from both our parents. We really do. And I think the last big thing I would say, and this is a bit more personal, but as unschooling and homeschooling parents trying to figure stuff out, I think reaching out for resources is great.

But you have to accept that there might sometimes be answers that are hard to deal with. I haven't actually been posting as much on the Facebook groups that we got connected through because I've gotten a lot of comments telling me that I'm...

Julieta (40:52)

and

Annelise (40:52)

underqualified to be talking about this because I'm not yet a parent or because I don't have a degree. I'm not a psychologist or a teacher.

But I have 24 years of experience,

to me, it's not about credentials. It's about the personal experience everyone has.

So I would say utilize the resources available because there's more people than just me who want to be talking about this. And who want to advocate and who want to connect. And then, okay, really the last thing I would say is it's okay to relax. Your kids will be okay. They will figure it out. If it takes them a little bit longer, if they wanna play video games until they're 18 or 19,

and then they want to explore the world a little bit more, it means that they finally feel safe too. That's what needs to be facilitated if you're worried about your kids and teens. Safety needs to be facilitated first because then they'll feel...

Julieta (41:41)

Yeah.

Annelise (41:49)

they'll feel more comfortable in being able to explore what they want, whether it's other people, whether it's jobs or college or whatever they want to do, you're their model for what is safe.

Julieta (41:59)

Yeah.

Annelise (42:00)

So if you decide that their lifestyle isn't okay or is risky or is too scary or there might be something wrong with them if they don't meet these particular quotas, then it's not very different from public school. You know, except you're their parent, you're the person, you're their first person that they will always want validation from. So I think that is the most important thing is realizing that what they need from you is so much more important than what

Julieta (42:14)

Yeah.

Annelise (42:27)

anyone else thinks or any other social pressure because all of that stuff can be figured out later. But your kids will always need you right now, especially as teens.

Julieta (42:37)

⁓ my goodness. So, so powerful. Annelise, thank you so very much. and where can people find you?

I'll put your podcast, the link to your podcast. She has a few episodes out and I highly encourage you to go and listen to them. They are very powerful, again, from her perspective.

because the systems that we have had are slowly caving in.

this new generation of human beings that are showing us a little bit of what it can look like and what is it that we need and how we can facilitate and how we can rethink everything that we have been given.

thank you so much for being an advocate and for sharing your journey, your wisdom.

Annelise (43:21)

Yeah, I'm absolutely send people to my podcast. also have an email attached to which is theartofunschooling@gmail.com

Whatever you want to talk about, whatever you want to ask, please feel free to reach out.

I really love talking and connecting with people. This is everything to me.

Julieta (43:36)

don't be shy. The work never ends, but we're here to do it together. to me, that's the importance of having these conversations available to all of you for you to listen, to be curious about what the questions are. How do you feel? What are your questions?

What are you fearful of? And to know that you're not alone

thank you, Annelise Once again, I had an absolute blast talking to you and learning from you. I really, really appreciate your time.

Annelise (44:05)

Thank you so much for having me. I was really, really happy that you reached out because I love having these platforms to talk about what it was like to grow up in this.

Julieta (44:12)

Yeah, absolutely. For everyone out there, please remember that your time is precious. I hope you're making it count. Take care.