Embracing the Journey: A Conversation with Tori Lenormand
- Julieta Duvall
- Mar 13
- 64 min read
Welcome to The Unschooling Lifestyle! Today, I’m thrilled to have my friend Tori Lenormand with us. Tori is the author of The Magic of Not Fitting In, a book that resonated deeply with me. I recently dove into it and couldn’t put it down, finishing it in just a day. Tori’s stories truly captured my heart and mind, reflecting many struggles that resonate with our own unschooling journey.
Julieta Duvall (00:00)
Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Unschooling Lifestyle today. I'm so excited to be here and I have my friend Tori Lenormand. She wrote the book The Magic of Not
Fitting In and I'm going to show you a quick picture of the book for you guys to see. I started reading the book, Tori, and I ended up, think I was page 53 or 52. And then I was done by the next day. I literally flew through the book and there were so many stories that kind of caught my mind and my heart. And I felt your story and I felt the struggle.
the story spans almost 10 years, right, of of your journey and of your son's journey through the school system. when does the book idea come about? What happens that you say, I, I really need to put this in paper for other people to relate.
because the book isn't preaching about you should do this, you should do that. The book is about a story that people can relate to. And I think that's why I flew through it, because was just seeing how relatable it is for some of the struggles that we went through as well in our beginning journey.
Victoria Lenormand (01:20)
that you hit the nail on the head there, that is exactly when I decided I needed to write this. And it started as a blog. I was in a women's group looking at alternative ways of working. I'm not too good with the whole marketing ideas, so I really wanted to learn what authenticity around marketing, and I was in a group that was looking at that. And in that group...
I found a voice that was... It was part of... I think now, I think it was part of the whole reflection review, healing journey of understanding of what came to me particularly in this group is that I wasn't alone. I think until that point, I had really...
really believed that what we'd experienced and what had happened was an unfortunate incident and it had happened to us and you know it was it was just an anomaly and I think I wanted to believe that I really wanted to believe that you know this is just a terrible set of circumstances that came together and didn't work out for us and
Julieta Duvall (02:35)
course.
Victoria Lenormand (02:49)
Fortunately, we've managed to find a way through it. But I was slowly starting, it was starting to dawn on me that the people that were drawn to me or coming into my life or certainly making themselves available were hiding behind the same shame that I felt around the And I mean, mean shame. It feels awful.
Victoria Lenormand (03:19)
to in this position and to understand that that had happened to a number of other people.
speaking to this. think we need to speak to this. And that penny dropped really hard that I needed to write. So I started writing it as a blog, thinking that people aren't picking up books as much. Maybe I'll add it to my website and I'll experiment with it. And the lady who picked it up as an editor, she said, that's not a blog, that's a book. Could you write into it a bit deeper?
Victoria Lenormand (04:00)
with a lot of support, we managed to write into exactly what happened. And I did need a lot of support through it because I think the journey, as you say, it's quite traumatic to actually be in it in that space. And I was crying as I wrote it, remembering all of this and thinking, wow, we've actually come through a lot. But the idea that other people are going through this and it's silently out there, that felt wrong. That's the bit that felt wrong is that I've never been.
Victoria Lenormand (04:29)
quiet, I've been serving my community and I felt this was a way for me to continue to serve my community, which to actually bring out the story that maybe needed a bit of courage in telling, you know, just so that other people could understand that they're not alone. And the way we were feeling is actually, no, the illusion is that you're alone in this. It's a way more common story.
Victoria Lenormand (04:57)
more more people are now reaching out and saying, this happened to me and this is awful and how do we stop this and how do we reimagine learning? How do we reimagine that? Yes, education, environment, learning, life, the whole thing. It's a big picture, isn't it? It's a much, much bigger picture than school or a teacher.
Julieta Duvall (05:09)
learning and education. Life. Life.
It is.
That's my God. Yes, most definitely. So
that's exactly how it feels when you go into this journey of living outside of what the school system and the traditional narrative, you have an older son that you you talk about and he really fit quite well into the school system.
your younger son get a diagnosis of autism like pretty early on, I think, right? How old was he?
Victoria Lenormand (05:51)
So he was three approaching four at that point and the diagnosis came in because it was the school system saying, and we knew William was incredibly active, you know, and a little quirky, but he was just an active, quirky, quite determined young man. And I didn't see an issue with that. The issue came at nursery when he was going...
Victoria Lenormand (06:18)
He was marching to his own drum. He was going in his own direction. And that's not allowed. And that's when I started to really think, you know, wow, this is, he really is quite, it takes a lot of strength to stand against an adult saying, come in this direction and no, thank you, I'm going this way. He's always very polite about it. No, thank you. I'm going this way. So it was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. And at the time,
Julieta Duvall (06:19)
Yes.
and bye.
I love that.
Victoria Lenormand (06:47)
the stress and trauma started because the identification was he did not fit. And in fact, he wouldn't be invited to attend the school because he did not fit. And that's when the questions really started. It's like, okay, how do we do this? Well, I think, yeah, I think we talk about our trip to the hospital and all of our systems and looking at how our children are different. And that different is not
Victoria Lenormand (07:18)
It's not embraced. It's just embraced. whilst they didn't see too much of a problem, the school really had one. The idea that this small child would not be doing what he was told to do and ready for school. He would not be ready for school and that would reflect on the nursery to feed into the school. So they would reject the child. And I was just in pieces at that point thinking.
Victoria Lenormand (07:48)
What am I supposed to do? I have to to work. I have to go to work. I quite enjoy my work, but I have to go to work and they kind of need me there. And this is pre-COVID when people were learning to work from home or anything else. And I was trying to put these ideas to my employer at the time saying...
Julieta Duvall (07:49)
What are we supposed to do? Yes.
Okay.
Victoria Lenormand (08:10)
So any chance I could work from, no, no, can't do this, you can't do that. All the things I couldn't do were suddenly possible a couple of years later. It was amazing.
Julieta Duvall (08:19)
my goodness.
That is so incredible. what were you doing when William started like in the preschool, the pre-K, what were you working on?
Victoria Lenormand (08:28)
So I was working in serious fraud at that point and then transferring. So I was transferring between there and revenue service investigations like financial clients, that kind of thing. So I was working in that field. So I needed to be in the office.
Julieta Duvall (08:47)
In the office, yes.
And were you getting calls all the time, even when he was little, right?
Victoria Lenormand (08:55)
It's one of the biggest offences to me was the denying of the school that they ever called me. mean, this is my boss was sat right next to me and commenting on how often I am telephoned by the school and even to the point of I don't actually want to answer the phone because it might be a client and that's great. But it could just be the school calling me away again from that period of come and get him, come and get him, come and get him. He's done this, he's done that.
Julieta Duvall (09:20)
Mm Because he wasn't. Yes,
because he wasn't following what they needed him to do. And this is something that you talked about. The medication, because I know and I'm just looking, through my notes here not because he needed it, but because the teacher did. And I get goosebumps.
Victoria Lenormand (09:39)
Isn't it interesting? Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (09:41)
Every time I read that portion, because when the children are diagnosed and I don't even know that that is actually the best course of action as far as diagnosis, because a three year old should be moving around, should be, exploring and doing things, because
We didn't come into this world to be other people, And it is just really, really interesting. But the medication is often pushed as a just like, please just go away.
Victoria Lenormand (10:19)
This is quite
a way into his school journey that this is being discussed. And it was because they were having success with other children taking medication. And I honestly, there was so much that drops in at the point that it was mentioned about, you know, this might not be the best fit for him, but it's the best we can do right now. And so you need to work with us, you know, in this way.
Victoria Lenormand (10:48)
And it dawned on me so many things very quickly all at once that I'm getting medical advice from a teacher. When did that happen? He's surrounded by medical practitioners. Not one of them is suggesting medication, but the teacher is. And that crossed a line for me, a real boundary for me in expertise.
Julieta Duvall (11:10)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (11:16)
It could be the investigator in me, could be anything, but I thought it was inherently dangerous that we'd actually moved into this sphere of medical advice, medical need coming from a teacher. And it wasn't until I spent a bit of time with it that I understood that it really was their need that I fully respect. are a number of children in the classroom and it is so much nicer if the teacher can get them all moving in that same direction. And I think that's a hell of a skill.
Julieta Duvall (11:44)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (11:45)
And
if you can get 20 kids to move in the same direction, or 30 kids to move in the same direction, that's terrific skill. But mine's marching to his own beat, and he doesn't fit there. And I understand that that's tricky and challenging. But if I needed him to do something at home, and I decided to medicate him, because it would make it easier for me, I think there would be some serious questions asked. But we're not asking it as a system.
Julieta Duvall (12:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yes!
Victoria Lenormand (12:14)
And that worries me. That that concerns me as a parent that we're empowering the system to ask questions that are outside of its field of expertise. And we are actively encouraging parents to conform to this. Now, it wasn't that harsh at the time. It was actually very gentle, but it raised big issues for me on that. I think this is dangerous. And when I look at how
governments around the world that are actually looking at home education and safeguarding and everything else at no point are they questioning things like this which the right people need to be asking the right questions. If a medical practitioner says you know we need to start looking at medication or anything else that's a totally different thing to a teacher suggesting it because it would be easier if he moved in the same direction as everybody else.
Julieta Duvall (13:09)
Yes. my gosh, yes. It would make like pizza for everything.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (13:13)
Yeah,
it was just, it was such a big question for me to think we're on dangerous ground now. And I, whilst I have compassion and sympathy for the position that they're in, trying to get the model to work, I'm not entirely convinced that this is the way. At the time we wanted to explore something far more natural, but that was going to take time. Obviously medication can be quite quick if it's working.
Julieta Duvall (13:19)
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Victoria Lenormand (13:43)
And we wanted to explore something that would be with a more natural sort of process. So we were working with a nutritionist looking at why we had certain issues happening with could it be an intolerance? Could it be this? Could it be that? And we were exploring these kind of things, listening to other autism families and community where, you know, they always seem to be
Julieta Duvall (14:06)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (14:11)
just another little nugget of wisdom out there from a parent that was sharing what their child went through, not saying this is the answer for every child. I think autism families have that understanding that it's such a vast spectrum that what works for one isn't necessarily going to work for another. But what they do is they share their experience. And that's what gave me the tone of the book, is that this is my experience. If it resonates, please keep it.
Julieta Duvall (14:13)
Yes.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (14:38)
And I hope it helps and if it doesn't, ditch it. This may help for your child. it does, I couldn't be happier if it doesn't. Keep trying, keep finding the ways it works for you. And this had been mentioned, the presentation was very similar to our son's, so it was worth trying. And for us, it was a huge change, huge change. I'm not a chef, and the cooking and everything else was just,
Julieta Duvall (14:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (15:07)
And I was so grateful for lockdown at that particular point because it gave me time to go, okay, now I can cook bone broths and, you know, these, all these things until I got very comfortable with it. And then it became second nature the way we do anyhow. But it's, it was a change and any change takes a bit of time to integrate. And I was great. I was grateful for that. So, but that, was ended up taking six weeks.
Julieta Duvall (15:29)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (15:36)
and a lot of the symptoms that we're presenting actually were supported. It's not that they're not there anymore. It's just, it's working better for him. It's working much better for him. There seems to be a gut brain connection. hear a lot of people talking about with autism anyhow, but this gut issue, it really needed a cleanse and a sore and that's really, really helped us.
Julieta Duvall (15:45)
Okay.
Yeah, that is so fascinating. I did read somewhere once that there are more neurons in the gut that there are in the brain. So those pathways, they really do form a connection with the way we eat and all of it that we consume. And I think that it's such a worry for people because our food system, I mean, especially in the US, is so compromised with
I mean, if you take it down to the seed, mean, they're genetically modified seeds that are there to withstand drought and whatever. But that's a whole conversation for another day. Yes, for sure.
Victoria Lenormand (16:43)
It's a whole different conversation, isn't it? But yeah, you know,
incredible. It was an incredible shift for us because it enabled us to get to the child that was behind the behaviors that were causing such an issue.
Julieta Duvall (16:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. And I love that you just said that though, because you're also right. And I have often shared this with groups and people when they talk about we concentrate so much on the behavior that we want to eliminate the behavior, whether it's screaming or, or perhaps just moving too much or something. But we don't look at the root of the behavior. And whenever I talk to someone, I'm like, just kind of stop for a moment. Like what happened before the behavior?
were they too hungry and maybe they just got to a point of no return. But you say behavior, when treated as something to be measured and managed, overlooks the fact that children's actions often communicate deeper issues, such as dissatisfaction with the learning environment or struggles with mental health. And then you, a little bit later, it says the current teaching of model and behavior
Victoria Lenormand (17:45)
Hmm.
Julieta Duvall (17:56)
punishment and reward, we encourage children to aim for reward, even if they don't want to do the task to avoid punishment. And it was such a powerful reading on that because again, it's just your story, but the way your words are written, it made me reflect on how much even my own experience as a child and part of my child's experience when he was in school was
Victoria Lenormand (18:04)
Mm.
Julieta Duvall (18:25)
based on pleasing other people. And I feel that all of the things that we do in the school system and how the school is created, it is to please other people. The medication is to please the teachers. The grades are to please the school and the administrators and the people that administer the task just so they can feel comfortable on themselves by seeing a number.
Victoria Lenormand (18:28)
Mm.
Julieta Duvall (18:53)
right, by seeing a grade, a percentage, my school is doing great because all of my children are doing this. But there's no second thought of what's going behind it. And even if it's something that's positively affecting the children and their way of being into this world, which is so pure and so natural and so, and there's so much to learn there. So when you, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (19:18)
Yes, so uniquely then, yeah, exactly.
I don't think we allow enough space for the fact that not every child is content with this level of instruction and an inability to speak to no thank you. No matter how polite, no thank you is not something we're encouraging in children. We don't want the
Julieta Duvall (19:33)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes, yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (19:48)
the time it takes to explain. We all know as parents that if you bother to explain something to your child, it takes a bit longer. If you sit down, can you pay attention for a moment? I'm just going to explain why. Yeah? And then you can decide whether it's still a no thank you or whether it's this. But the schools still don't allow the no thank you. Whereas, and I think that's where children lose the connection with themselves.
Julieta Duvall (19:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (20:17)
And I watched my son at that particular point, whilst one was thriving in it, content in the back of his mind that he knew exactly what he was, because most of what he'd found was quite happy to drift through school, doing his thing, and everything he loved was outside of school, as I realized that my youngest son hadn't found the thing he loved yet. And he was being told all the things that didn't fit, and starting to make him feel really bad at
Julieta Duvall (20:38)
Mmm.
Victoria Lenormand (20:45)
about himself at a very young age. So in trying to engage with the school on this, you know what, at the moment he gets a lot from this, we're witnessing this, maybe more of this. No, you think, how do I get that in then as a parent? Because by the time he's finished school, he's exhausted. mean, exhausted to the point of can't face dinner much more.
Julieta Duvall (21:08)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (21:15)
much less the idea of an activity that he might actually enjoy.
Julieta Duvall (21:19)
Enjoy,
yeah. There's no time left.
Victoria Lenormand (21:21)
There's a very thin line between that and the idea that, you know, we've hit a level of depression where you can't lift yourself out. And that's when the headmistress started to talk to us about decider skills courses within the school that they were noticing because a very high number of children, this is junior school under 11, very high number of children under 11 were presenting as having quite serious mental health issues.
Julieta Duvall (21:23)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Victoria Lenormand (21:51)
with anxiety or depression or a combination of the two. So anxiety, fear of the future, depression, unable to let go of the past, or a combination of the two. And at no point was anyone thinking that where they spent the majority of their day might actually be affecting that. it's a disconnect. It's a massive disconnect.
Julieta Duvall (22:06)
Yes, it's Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That, yes, that is, mm-hmm,
that is so sad and, so clear that people definitely do not want to see it. there's a lot of resistance about exiting the system
Julieta Duvall (22:26)
we resist to go into a different model of life. so there was a lot of struggle.
And it was a lot of back and forth with the school, the administrators, the notes, the mistrust, because people kept changing your notes and how the meetings were being evaluated and all of that. So there was it was a big battle to try to hold space for William within the system that was not seen him for for his uniqueness and his gifts. So when do you start seeing? OK.
this system isn't gonna work for us. I have to find, I have to create something else at this point. the need is much stronger for a different model of lifestyle. So when do you start seeing this?
Victoria Lenormand (23:16)
Yeah, I would say that, there were times when William would really come alive. So on a rugby pitch, he was four and he was so happy. And I think we were getting a really good look at how he learned and how quickly he learned and how engaged he was outside. So we'd started to notice that first is that
Victoria Lenormand (23:40)
Maybe the inside is actually the issue. Maybe the itchy skin and everything else he gets from being in the room is actually symptomatic of the fact that this is a person who needs to be outside. There's something he's getting from that that we couldn't measure. And I also think it comes back to that a lot of the time as well as we, the reason the system is the way it is, is because we can measure it. And that gives us a lot of comfort in evidence.
Julieta Duvall (23:54)
Yes.
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (24:10)
we measure these things.
Julieta Duvall (24:11)
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (24:12)
William wasn't presenting in any way that they were comfortable measuring, so we kept getting these little statements of, yeah, it's not exactly what he needs, but it's the best we can do right now. And knowing that that was not going to be enough to save him from where he was, which was really very, very distressed.
Victoria Lenormand (24:39)
I didn't think more of the same was actually going to be helping. mean, the definition of madness, isn't it, is to keep repeating the same event and hoping for a different outcome.
Julieta Duvall (24:47)
and hoping for a different outcome. Yes, yes.
Victoria Lenormand (24:50)
You didn't stop me banging my head against the wall and trying the whole be resilient, be resilient thing first. know, let's come on. Let's just find a way. Let's find a way. There must be a way. So it wasn't until I really understood the massive limitations on the system designed to bring exactly what you just spoke to, a particular outcome. If you could tolerate, which a lot of children do, I think, I don't think they enjoy it. I think they tolerate it.
Julieta Duvall (24:55)
Yeah, go just go push through it, push through it. You can do it. Yes. Mm
Mm-hmm.
They tolerated, yes.
Victoria Lenormand (25:20)
Or you thrive in it because you're naturally academic and this is your baby and you're growing and so of course you shine but then do we keep up with you? know okay there are also very gifted children in that academic sense that the school can't keep up with as well so we lose here and we're kind of losing these kids to thinking that they have no worth and that's where our youngest was the idea that he had no worth.
Julieta Duvall (25:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (25:49)
And when that hit home, that was when I started to really ask different questions of what would it look like if he could do the things that brought him joy and learned from them at the same time. And very shortly after that, we locked down. The pandemic hit. I remember so clearly saying to him that morning,
We're not going to school today because the school looks a bit different and there's a bug going around and to keep everybody safe, we're going to be staying home. And he looked at me, these eyes were just huge saying, I will do anything not to go, anything. At the moment, they're sending some work home and I'm trying to work out if we could do.
Julieta Duvall (26:38)
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (26:49)
learning differently. But I don't know what that looks like yet. So work with me and let's see what we can come up with together. Let's see what we can create here. And because school was sending things home, he worked out very quickly that he could get up very early in the morning, get straight on the computer, do his work and the rest of the day was his. And I thought, academia is not the problem. You're
managing. went from the bottom of the class to the top of the class. And so much so that the teacher said, are you doing much of this work for him? I said, seriously, none. I'm not doing anything. I sat next to him. He's, he's, he's normally up and on it before I've actually got out of bed at the moment. I'm almost embarrassed to tell you that, but you know, at 7am I'm rising, so I'm not exactly late, but he's already, I've got my work and I'm on it and I'm done. said, well, I'm going to start posting it a bit later. I said, okay.
then maybe that will encourage him to stay in bed a little earlier because he's so keen to get the work done. So he works out very, very quickly. And then we started playing games in the afternoon, like the floor is lava with, you know, how many pillows is it going to take to go from this side of the room to that side of the room and how much, all of that. living games, the scouts thing was positively inspirational. did, they went online.
Julieta Duvall (27:51)
and be done with it, Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (28:16)
and he still got to meet some of his scout friends. So he started to understand that there was an ability to connect at a distance and learn something that wasn't easy to start with. But he got there. You know, he got there. It just took a little bit of time for him to understand he needed to pause and let the other person speak. But this was where he understood that communication was a two-way thing. It was actually online. He hadn't made that connection in person.
Julieta Duvall (28:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (28:45)
because he can grab and drag you, but he can't do that when you're in line.
Julieta Duvall (28:50)
That's amazing though. And let me go back to what you said about him and his way of thinking about him, because that was a really powerful, powerful moments also in your story. So first, when he's a little bit younger, you talk about the rainbow and the behavior chart. And that...
had me in tears because it broke my heart that someone so beautiful as a child, as any child is, it's striving for a picture that has nothing to do with them. You know, the picture it is, just like we said earlier, is to please other people and it has nothing to do with them at all.
and their whole life, their whole eight hours are set disconnecting from their body and disconnect them from who they are just so they can achieve that picture that pleases other people. can you share a little bit about how negative his view of himself was?
Victoria Lenormand (30:05)
is. I can feel rising nausea sometimes when I go back to this particular space. But yeah, he was his first year of school. And I remember going in that first day and getting this little little package from the teacher, which was really sweet, a tea bag and a biscuit to go home mum. And I promised I'll look after them. And I thought, you know, thank you. That's so lovely. And you trust that.
you know, all these little extra things that this incredible teacher is doing to try and help you understand that they've got your child and then my child had not been got. That's the problem. Yeah. Is that, you know, in your, in the crowd here, the little one that's doing his own thing is, is not being caught. And the way to get him caught was to connect him with this behavior chart. And he did connect with it.
He absolutely understood that the black cloud that he was on was unacceptable. But he took that in as I am unacceptable. Not the cloud was talking about the things he was doing during the day that the teachers would rather he didn't do. So we tried to have these conversations and he just couldn't connect with them in any way, shape or form. He could not connect with.
This is this black cloud. is how, you know, what has happened. And I'm trying to get clarity from the teacher and the support worker that's with him. What happened today that, you know, had him on this cloud and has him so upset that he just can't sit still.
but he's got a diagnosed condition that sitting still is just something he's not going to achieve yet. We know this. We're working towards it. So could we have something that kind of recognized that he'd achieved it for a period of time? If you want him to aim here, can you do that? Can we look at maybe something else that he could achieve rather than the sitting still thing? Because that does look like it's quite a long way up.
Julieta Duvall (31:53)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (32:14)
And it's not natural for him. It's But he's disrupting everybody else and he thinks,
Julieta Duvall (32:17)
mean, honestly, I just don't think that's natural for any child. And I just think it's so unfair
to request that and to punish based on that because we don't punish adults when they get up from their cubicles to go to the bathroom or to go to the break room. We don't punish anyone for that matter. So why is it that it's okay to punish children for not sitting still?
Victoria Lenormand (32:46)
slightly differently because in my workplace, your time in the bathroom and that were being measured just how long you're away from your desk. And I thought it was reflective of what was actually happening in our workspaces in the UK at the time. From a police supervisor saying, you know, what are you doing back here? I'm like, using the bathroom? Well, this bathroom's not there, you can use those. you think, whoa, hang on a second.
Julieta Duvall (32:50)
Mm-hmm.
my goodness, my
Victoria Lenormand (33:12)
Do you remember these old time and motion studies? They regularly troll them out to see what you're doing, how you're spending your time and how productive you're being. you know, if you're spending a lot of time in the bathroom, this is not okay, which is why I think it's reflected in our school system over here that you your hand to go to the toilet and, you you must, yeah, you know, all of these things that I remember saying to the lady at work is with the greatest respect.
Julieta Duvall (33:27)
In our school system, Ask permission.
Victoria Lenormand (33:41)
I'm in my 30s and if I need a bathroom, I need a bathroom and I've not been in here once yet today, so I don't think it's excessive.
Julieta Duvall (33:49)
Yeah, I mean, just a side note, that is so incredible. William was constantly in the black cloud because of his inability to sit still.
Victoria Lenormand (34:01)
Yeah, inability
to sit still, inability to put his hand up without shouting out. You know, the teacher asked the question, he gives the answer and he thinks he's pleasing at that point. So I see his efforts to try and please but the effort is seen this, that he's actually trying to please because he didn't put his hand up. I was listening to a parent the other week explaining how the child had difficulty with spelling and
I think this is the power of sharing the stories that other parents are coming in, as we said. But her child had done a spelling test and done fantastic. 10 out of 10. A whole lot. Amazing work. But we've had 10 marks taken away because it was on the wrong side of the page.
Julieta Duvall (34:44)
What?
Victoria Lenormand (34:45)
And I'm wondering what we were trying to teach at that particular point.
Julieta Duvall (34:50)
I think all of us parents, you know, we have some, you know, examples like that that are just like over the top and completely missing the mark of what, what are we looking for here? And our children get the, they get to internalize that because we're just talking about spelling and we're talking about,
Victoria Lenormand (34:59)
Mm.
Julieta Duvall (35:07)
I don't know, answering a question, but they are seeing that they don't know how to do that. And it gets internalized and it is so damaging in the long run.
Victoria Lenormand (35:17)
and I think the behavior chart that you're talking about is symptomatic of how we try to encourage children at a very early stage with a behavior change that this is acceptable and this isn't but what we're missing is that they are internalizing that is that this is acceptable about me and this isn't acceptable about me and that's that's too far that's way too far to be
Julieta Duvall (35:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (35:43)
and they are far too young to be receiving that kind of message. And for me, that it's an intrinsic part of the harms that we're seeing on an epidemic level in our children of, don't know who I am. I don't trust who I am. And I don't think who I am is okay. I don't think who am is okay because I'm not the rainbow. And the rainbow is the goal. And I have no idea how to be the rainbow because I can't
Julieta Duvall (36:00)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (36:12)
to get anywhere near it. So recreating that story just made him the liar. And I thought, yeah, again, you're missing that what he said is he wanted to see what it felt like. He wanted to see what it felt like when he came out to say, I've done this. And I'm having to then, we're pitching parents against teachers at this particular point, because I'm having to say to my child that you're on my rainbow.
Julieta Duvall (36:15)
Get no matter.
Victoria Lenormand (36:42)
Every day, you're on my rainbow. It means the world to me that you care about this. I care about it because you care about it. But just know every day, if I can draw a rainbow here, you're always on it. You're on my rainbow every day. It's just not happening in that environment just yet. We haven't worked out quite why just yet. And all the conversations I had was all about, yeah, he's never going to achieve that.
Julieta Duvall (36:43)
every day.
Victoria Lenormand (37:11)
So why is it there? Why is it there? And nobody questioned it. Nobody asked why it was there. How can we have inclusivity if we have children in a classroom that we know cannot achieve in the same way others do and yet just think that there won't be any effect? Of course there's an effect. Of course there's an effect.
Julieta Duvall (37:18)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes. It is so powerful. I love what you said about, asking questions, though, because that was one of my biggest, discoveries and journeys when we transitioned into unschooling and just a different way of living. I honestly did not ask questions.
you and your husband begin asking the questions and what are some of the pivotal moments or questions that once you found an answer, you were like, we must do different right now.
Victoria Lenormand (38:09)
Yeah, we went into, because you get quite a lot of meetings with, or certainly over here in the UK, you get quite a lot of meetings if your child isn't quite fitting, there are all these corrective meetings. And a lot of it is focused on the child's behaviour that they're witnessing, and then it continues on to why the child is behaving like that with a very, very microscopic look at the parents. You're thinking, we're not...
Julieta Duvall (38:19)
Okay.
Victoria Lenormand (38:36)
That's not always the answer. understand why it's become an answer, but it's not always the answer. So my husband and I were right under the microscope at this particular point when the head of the special unit that William was a part of had said that it's not, you know, okay, it's not great for him. You're right. It doesn't mean everything that he needs in his
Julieta Duvall (38:42)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (39:05)
educational plan, this golden plan that we had, and we can't deliver all of that. But you know, it's just the best we can do right now. But we're punishing him for not doing things we know we're unsupporting. We're punishing him for things we're not doing, and it's having this effect. Maybe we should look at another way, at which point the tone completely changed. So I asked the question of looking another way, and the tone shifted.
in the room it completely shifted to well of course you know that is not actually an autism problem. said what sorry what's not an autism problem and what you're describing right now this is a child in crisis but I think that's what we've been discussing with this child. Well you know so going into the home is not necessarily the answer and it was really no. If we if you take him out if you consider some
something alternative to what we're doing now. again, I hadn't asked that question before. I haven't really finished exploring it in my own mind, with my own family, as to what that might look like going forward. And I certainly hadn't done enough research with other families that were home educating to know what was happening. But the fear in the room was palpable.
My husband and I had a discussion about it as we were leaving saying, well that was an unwelcome suggestion. was very unwelcome. All the school resources will be removed from you. You will not have access to this and you will be reliable for all of these expenses and we will be checking on you. We will be checking. You just understand that you would not just circle back and I thought, one question. What would it look like if
we stopped banging our head against this brick wall that we all agree in that room was not actually meeting his need at that moment and tried something different. And the defense mechanism was like something I've never seen. I couldn't quite believe it. The tone of every meeting after that changed. We did have a very distressed little boy and there were days when
which is one day in particular that I said, I just can't do this anymore. I can't. And we stayed home and I said, I'm sorry, we just, we just can't. I'm just not exposing him to this anymore. We're, we're trying to work with you. We're getting nowhere. You can't deliver and I can't watch this anymore. So we're now at this impasse. Again, the dogs came off, out came educational psychologists and all kinds, all manner of,
Julieta Duvall (41:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (41:57)
support and help to try and encourage him to keep trying in this system that he would succeed. It just looked awful right now. And my son just couldn't see the light. You know, there was no light in there for him apart from being at home. I think it was the last bastion we had of light for him to say, you know what, you're safe here. I heard another parent say to me that they were told to drag their child in.
into school in their pajamas if necessary, they have to be in school. that, yeah, I'm thinking we're doing an awful lot of creating this really unpleasant space and not questioning that if that unpleasant space was my home, you'd be having all kinds of resources in here to check on what on earth I was doing at home.
Julieta Duvall (42:29)
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (42:51)
And if that unpleasant place or the child's crisis or anything else is happening in that home environment, there would reasonably be questions asked. What surprised me though was the flip of that script to now we're really going to start blaming you for all of this because we cannot look at the school, the system, the... And I'm not talking individual teachers and individual schools here, I am talking system. We cannot...
Julieta Duvall (43:20)
system. Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (43:23)
That cannot be flawed. There is an absolute mental block on the idea that that could in any way, shape or form actually be the thing that was causing the problem. It had to be us.
Julieta Duvall (43:35)
my goodness.
Victoria Lenormand (43:38)
And that was just awful. It was the most horrendous experience we've ever had. My husband and I were a complete loss for as experienced as we are in life. That one knocked me sideways, absolutely knocked me sideways. I didn't think you could make allegations like that without some kind of...
some kind of evidence, some kind of idea that something really serious had happened. at that point, the school, the support workers had decided that they were going to park, that was their term, William's diagnosis, in favor of an exploration that he was clearly being abused in the home.
Julieta Duvall (44:08)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (44:31)
Hence the shame. Hence. Yeah. I couldn't think of a worse allegation that you could make to a family. I just couldn't. For people who adore their child, as the vast majority of us do, I'm not blind. I'm well aware that these things happen. But to level that kind of allegation, because you can't look at what the problem actually is, was horrific. It was just horrific.
Julieta Duvall (44:32)
Yeah, yeah.
What the
Victoria Lenormand (45:01)
This is why I honestly thought that we just met an unpleasant character with no real understanding of what child abuse is or anything else. And he just decided to say something horrible and the wheels started turning. I couldn't understand that that was actually, I mean, at that point I had no understanding reference to otherwise that this was happening to other families. That the idea of...
Julieta Duvall (45:13)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (45:28)
you know from from school anything else actually we can start blaming parents we're going to be looking at ourselves we're going to start looking at at the parents and the narrative that we're hearing constantly now is that parents are not bringing their children to school parents are not meeting their duty parents are deciding what's best for their child didn't we always
Julieta Duvall (45:44)
Yes.
Yes. I love what the illusion there, though, because I feel like when there is so much going on and then all of a sudden, that's almost like narcissism behavior, right? the school system is wrong, but then they they twist your words and your actions into something to make you think that you are the one that's causing the problem.
So it almost like you stopped to second guess, am I the one causing the problem? Like what is happening here? in, as you say, like they're looking at the parents now, there's a new bill about homeschooling, and about registration and the UK that it's in the process of, I looked at the website, I briefly read, I read the summary of the bill and,
Victoria Lenormand (46:12)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Julieta Duvall (46:39)
It just shows that they just want to keep a registry of whoever is home educating and adding resources for this registry to be active and tracking on parents. Now, as you go through this journey and you connect with parents, are you seeing that more people are choosing to exit the system?
Victoria Lenormand (46:53)
Mm-hmm.
Julieta Duvall (47:06)
And that's why there is this need for keeping control on registry and to somehow keep an order. Because with a registry, I feel like there's a greater chance of people following on those claims. You know, like it must be you the parent and therefore we have the right to check in. And please know that I am absolutely aware of abuse that happens. Please know that I am not.
Victoria Lenormand (47:20)
Thank you.
Yes.
Julieta Duvall (47:35)
by any means, saying or thinking that, claims of abuse should not be followed up. and that is a topic for another conversation. Tori, is there a massive exodus from the school system in the UK too?
Victoria Lenormand (47:52)
Yes, there is. There are more and more people now. And it started with a narrative around the pandemic saying that a number of children have not returned to school in preference of home education. And a number of children went back to school and preferred to be at home and now they're being home educated. So some never went back, which was our case. Some went back, went, no, that's not okay. And then
Julieta Duvall (48:01)
Mm-hmm.
Same.
Victoria Lenormand (48:19)
stayed home, came back home and others are coming up against things, making life changes and it includes how their children are learning and they're discovering another path. Maybe like us, saw them learning at home, learning online and realized that that actually suits their child better, not for every child. So what I think we're looking at is flexibility within the system that doesn't currently exist. It just doesn't currently exist. So
Julieta Duvall (48:30)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (48:48)
The narrative around the UK government bill is one of child protection. We need to know that children that are at home are safe in that home environment. like you, I have no issues with that as a principle. I have absolutely no issues with that. But such a system already exists. When your child is born,
Julieta Duvall (48:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And it's
Victoria Lenormand (49:11)
we're having the same problems, but I don't think it is because, so, you know, over here, certainly in the UK, and I'm in Scotland and we have a very slightly different system, which is kind of wonderful. I'd love to talk into that in a bit, but the narrative that is coming out at the moment is that we must have children on the register.
Julieta Duvall (49:28)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (49:35)
because that register will keep them safe. Well, children are already on the register from the minute they're born. It's a medical register. And would doctors not actually be better placed than teachers to explain why a child might be better in a home environment than a school? if they're not seeing, you know, so that, that system is still up and running and, and does incredibly well. Teachers are saying they're doing the largest number of reporting into the system about safeguarding.
Julieta Duvall (49:40)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (50:04)
concerns, but that's not the full picture. And I could make a phone call today and say, I'm concerned about this child. you become part of the statistic that reports in. So if we're saying teachers as a group, a statistic are reporting in, I can't help but reflect on our own experiences on the spurious reporting. It's really concerning. Just reporting doesn't mean that there are concerns.
genuine and bona fide concerns. How many of those reports are actually bona fide concerns? How many of those reports actually turn out to be valid? And that's quite a difference to being able to pick up the phone and say whatever you like to actually having an evidence investigation and establishing that no, child's absolutely fine. It's just they're not coming to school at the moment because they're finding
Julieta Duvall (50:46)
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (51:02)
They're finding the space traumatic, but they're finding the space too difficult to be in. They're not going with the lessons. They're not finding it engaging and interesting. These are numbers and numbers and numbers of reasons that children are not in school. They feel that they might be present. And we're talking then about a bum on a seat. In the crudest terms, we're talking about a bottom being kicked in on a register. Their bottom was on a seat at that particular. That's not measuring the learning.
Julieta Duvall (51:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
No, that's not doing anything.
Victoria Lenormand (51:31)
So we're using statistics
to actually present something that isn't presenting anything. And this is my problem with the UK bill at the moment is that actually the statistics you're using are not presenting. You're using a minority of issues, like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. These issues do exist. They're actually there. What we need to do is tighten up the existing systems, not start fearing that every parent that has taken the difficult choice of
in my case, leaving career my husband leaving his career and taking the expense of everything coming back into the home to say, how do I support my child? That doesn't tend to be a lazy parent. That tends to be an incredibly dedicated parent. Certainly, I have not met these people in all the home educating groups. And we've been contacting people around the world.
Julieta Duvall (52:03)
Yes.
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (52:29)
during our travels and discoveries to say, what is this? Another way that we understood that actually this is endemic. This is happening everywhere. That children are saying no thank you to the school system. In the ways that they say no thank you, in the very ways they say no thank you, is that I can't be there, I'm distressed, I'm hurting myself.
Julieta Duvall (52:40)
everywhere.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (52:56)
You know, just, I'm not listening. I'm not engaged. I'm not getting the grades in every way possible that those children don't fit it. Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (53:03)
Everything is. Yeah,
everything is a sign and everything is it's saying something, it is really a sacrifice, like you say, and I know a lot of people are still looking, for different avenues, different ways. I know it's not always possible. And like you say, you have to really there is a massive change as far as how you do your work, how you view your lifestyle, what you value.
Victoria Lenormand (53:18)
Hmm.
Julieta Duvall (53:29)
how you spend your money, though, because it has been an incredible journey, to be able to prioritize being at home and facilitating what is important to them, whether it's, like driving 40 minutes to an activity or, moving to a whole different place or, moving your home and all of that. So it is a journey and there is a way. But I understand.
Victoria Lenormand (53:31)
Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (53:55)
how it's not always possible right away, right? Like they're just like, I felt like you dream big and you start small and it feels, mean, you've been on this journey for a couple of years now and making slight changes for your career and your travels talk to me about Scotland right now, like what you were saying in comparison to the UK.
Victoria Lenormand (54:17)
So there's a very slight difference in that Scotland has really pinned their colors to the mask to say that they are going to align with the UNICEF model of a child's mattering when it comes to how they wish to learn. So how a child learns, how their voice actually matters. It's not about parent picking anymore. It's about what does this child need?
to thrive and succeed. Now that for me is the essence of child-centered learning, which the vast majority of home educators or progressive education space creators are really looking at is what does that child need to thrive? And it is a very individual thing. The school motto for our younger school was every child, every chance, every day.
Julieta Duvall (54:51)
Mm-hmm.
It is.
Victoria Lenormand (55:12)
But the unspoken part of that was every child to fit in this system, they get every chance to fit in this system every day. They get every chance to fit here. But if they don't fit, we're really not that interested. What we need to look at is how do we create a space where they have the opportunity to bring who they are and that can grow organically, naturally that can grow.
Julieta Duvall (55:38)
Mmm. Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (55:41)
which is what home educators are actually embracing, is that how are you going to grow best? Because this environment, this is the seed that isn't growing. We can call it a bad seed, which seems to be what we're doing at the moment, which is just throw it away. They are people at the end of the day, not a seed. Maybe not the best option. We can look at what that seed needs to flourish.
Julieta Duvall (55:44)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yes.
more sun, water, yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (56:12)
What does it mean?
Exactly, what does it need to actually flourish? we are all, you know, that's the beauty of us, we're all different. And if you can be the same, how many people are actually adults in their life and happy being the same? Or how many of them get to a certain age that we used to call a midlife crisis and say, you know what, this is just not for me, and throws it all out the window? It's in another direction.
Julieta Duvall (56:36)
I mean, it is so true. It's so
true, though, Elizabeth Gilbert, wrote Eat, Pray, Love, she just she's a perfect example of what we validate in adults, right? Because she left everything, chose to move and find herself and reconnect back to her body and her soul and travel the world, experience, Italy and
she found herself again, right? After living a life that wasn't really for her. So isn't that the true essence of perhaps allowing a child to develop their own essence from early on? Like there's no need to go through all the suffering, honestly, like nobody wants to suffer. I do believe the journey of some experiences allow you to move into the next.
Victoria Lenormand (57:18)
Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (57:27)
into the next experience, especially, I mean, we went through that. But if we already know that and we are facilitating how our children learn, as individualized as possible and as openly without judgment and saying you're a bad seed because you don't conform wouldn't that be a lot better? Like just I mean, can you imagine what a world of people that have been able supported in
to follow their own path. What does that world look like?
Victoria Lenormand (57:57)
system just needs to admit that it's created a one size fits all model that isn't actually serving anybody. It's not serving the child, it's not serving our work spaces, it's not serving anything. If you kick out creativity and innovation and difference, then we don't develop in any way, shape or form. So the problems that we're facing at the moment, are they a lack of innovation because we've not encouraged innovative thinking?
Julieta Duvall (58:03)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (58:27)
Have we waited too long for those innovative thinkers? You know, they've had to do these subjects, these subjects, these subjects, before they've been killed. Actually, now you're allowed to think. And we can see what happens when children raised in a system that was actually designed for an industrial revolution come into a workspace that is a million miles away from that right now. And they're being taught, can you not think for yourself? Well, no, because I've been through instructions.
Julieta Duvall (58:50)
Yes.
No. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (58:56)
all the way up to here and that served me well and now you want me to create and innovate when I don't know what my creativity and innovation sounds like anymore because I've shut it out. I shut it out completely. As you said beautifully, you're disconnected from your body. Finding another language around that was pivotal and I think we both discovered human design as a language around it. was, well, that was a game changer for me as well. That was a massive game changer to see.
Julieta Duvall (59:06)
Yes.
completely.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (59:26)
William's gifts written down so clearly in a way that, and there's a school that's actually using this at the moment as a model. They're using human design as project-based learning with children online that come together a couple of times a year. I just, I love this space and I'm I'm keeping it in the back of my mind in case William ever says to me, you know what, I want to go there.
Julieta Duvall (59:30)
Yes. my goodness.
That is so fascinating though. is a few, where is the school though? Is it online you said?
Victoria Lenormand (59:57)
So this is an online school and it was created to allow community for children who were transient, whose parents were moving a lot for work or they traveled a lot for whatever reason. And these children kept their classroom with them rather than having to transfer schools. So it became a space for that. But beyond that, they've got different ages.
Julieta Duvall (1:00:15)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:00:24)
different interests, different else, all coming together on project-based learning with a deep understanding in the teaching community of human design. Every child works a little bit differently and so their unique skill set and needs, the generators are, we know that you're a generator and we know you're a manifestor and you're going to need to find a different way here and they're naturally embracing those gifts and I'm just...
Julieta Duvall (1:00:26)
course.
I love that.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:00:53)
Yeah, I was, it's called Beyond Limitations. They are, we're not, we're not affiliated with them in any way, shape or form. We don't go, but I've been watching the space thinking that looks fabulous.
Julieta Duvall (1:00:54)
Oh my gosh, yes, yes.
That does sound fabulous.
And speaking of human design though, when does it come to you or how does it come to you? Because you also dedicate a full chapter of your book to Cacao. And I have to say, so I was born in Mexico. So Cacao came to me in a very unique introductory way a couple of years ago. So I went to Mexico and I...
I had the pleasure of being initiated by someone in Cancun.
I do use Cacao, for meditation and then When I'm having the sads in human design, I have the sads a lot. So when I have the sads I kind of retreat and I confide in Cacao
Victoria Lenormand (1:01:43)
Okay.
Julieta Duvall (1:01:51)
how does Cacao find you?
Victoria Lenormand (1:01:55)
So I think again as part of our journey, she, I call her she, think Cacao is a feminine plant. So we have William and a Space of Guts discord, real problems with this tummy and behaviors really coming out because of this tummy. We've got this happening whilst we're speaking with a nutritionist.
Julieta Duvall (1:01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:02:24)
whilst I am in crisis and under my own GP saying, maybe some antidepressants if you can't stop crying. And I start searching for something a little more natural. The language in my family had always been around antidepressants being, it's not helping you, it's squashing what you need to feel. But I need to be able to cope with what's happening.
Julieta Duvall (1:02:47)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:02:51)
I don't want to numb it because I can't respond at that point, which is what I did for a short period of time. I numbed it completely because I couldn't function. But in that numbing area, I knew I couldn't respond in the way I needed to respond to this issue. So I started to look at alternatives. And that is when a Cacao practitioner said, actually, I have a lot of people that are coming off of...
Julieta Duvall (1:03:00)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:03:22)
um, antidepressant medication and moving on to continue to process the feeling. So, you know, I knew I needed time. I knew I needed like a, I don't know, a therapist, a coach. needed somebody, a place where I could put this that was not around William, was nice and safe, that I could just say all the stuff I needed to say in a very safe place that I could process. I could start to process it because I'm an external processor, so I need to hear it out loud.
Julieta Duvall (1:03:23)
Mm-hmm.
something.
Hmm.
yeah, okay.
Victoria Lenormand (1:03:51)
And my husband's an internal processor, so he was getting stuck on the process. So, anyhow, so Cacao found us and I started to introduce Cacao to my life. I noticed that my anxiety, was this chronic anxiety about the future for my child, given how everybody was responding to him, without exception.
Julieta Duvall (1:04:10)
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:04:20)
people responding to him in the most negative way and I didn't know how to that and to go through it. So I started working with Cacao and it became...
a morning ritual for me with myself. This is in my cup. holding me, hugging me. We're talking about hugging a mug, don't we? But this is really my hug in my mug that is holding me and allowing me just to take a few minutes to talk about meditation.
Julieta Duvall (1:04:35)
Yeah.
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:04:57)
That was my 10, 15 minutes in the morning of setting myself for the day with Cacao was a completely different process to taking a tablet and carrying on.
Julieta Duvall (1:05:02)
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:05:10)
That was the process that really helped shift for me was that I couldn't get to a counselor, a coach, a therapist. I couldn't get to these people at this point, other than through a book. I could look at what I was going through. could understand what I was going through, but I didn't know how to shift it. And as I was sat in meditation with Cacao, little things kept dropping in that quiet space of, and I'm talking, I'm not talking about hours and hours. I'm talking about 15 minutes.
Julieta Duvall (1:05:38)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:05:40)
you know,
Julieta Duvall (1:05:40)
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:05:41)
sat with my cup, taking a breath, drinking my drink. And that's the practice I continue now of what's coming up. What's in here? What's in my cup in here? What's, well, in my cup here, what's in my cup in here? What's sitting in here that needs to be expressed right now? Or what little, little things are happening that I need my attention?
Julieta Duvall (1:05:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:06:08)
right now, what needs my attention? And the first thing that came up was that I was going to go and study more about Cacao because I was feeling so much better so quickly. With just this practice, this 10 minutes in the morning, like I say, 10, 15 minutes in the morning. So I started studying with Keith's Cacao
Julieta Duvall (1:06:09)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:06:36)
understanding the difference between Cacao and chocolate, maybe why I crave chocolate, and understanding that it is a whole, why it needs to be whole, how it needs to be processed, for you to get these very natural benefits from it. And as I started to connect with that and experience my own shift in anxiety, I introduced it to William.
Julieta Duvall (1:06:48)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:07:02)
making absolutely certain through this course and that it was quite safe to introduce to my child, and it was absolutely fine. So we started introducing it, of course it's quite bitter. So we were introducing it as a Cacao banana smoothie with him, and we watched the anxiety start to drift. And so very grateful, I'm very grateful to Cacao for finding us and coming through and showing us away those little 10 minutes.
Julieta Duvall (1:07:08)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:07:31)
gave me the inspiration to really question a lot deeper than I'd started to question. So I'd started to question whether the system was serving and whether it was the right place for my child. But then I started to question this idea that he has to go to school because I have to go to work. Where is he going to go if I've got to go to work? And what dropped in was, what if he worked differently?
And I thought, I don't know the first thing about working differently. In came COVID and gave me some ideas. And I started to think about what I could do. What did I do that was my skill set rather than my job? What did I have in me that was a skill set that was better than the job description I had that actually didn't?
Julieta Duvall (1:08:09)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:08:27)
speak to half of what I actually did anyhow. And I thought, well, this is incredible. It helped me shift by helping me observe the questions that were inside me so that I could start exploring them. And the first thing it did was help me let go of the fear around exploring it. Because I didn't need to that was there. It's that, I've grown up with an awful lot of rules and an awful lot of ideas of how things should.
Julieta Duvall (1:08:54)
should be.
Victoria Lenormand (1:08:55)
A word that I actually feel quite a lot of repulsion for at the moment is the word should. I'm not going to be my values are my values. love community. People really matter to me. But the idea that we should always be the same. I don't agree with it. The idea that we don't evolve. Of course we do. And the reason we evolve is we're meant to. We're meant to grow.
Julieta Duvall (1:08:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:09:23)
and I was meant to grow at that point and come out of. Thank you ever so much for all of these lessons. Thank you so much for all of these lessons. Now, where am I going to take them? And life became exciting again. That just a little bit of excitement. When I stopped thinking that I have to pay the mortgage, so I've got to go to work, I started thinking I could live in my motorhome.
Julieta Duvall (1:09:25)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:09:45)
because it shifted.
Julieta Duvall (1:09:47)
is shifted and that is so fascinating and we have also shifted as far as asking the question and allowing some time for the answers to drop in and they don't always come in, right when I'm from my mind when I'm working from my mind and just wanting that answer to come to me, it doesn't come in all, like in that moment, like it doesn't work like that.
But I feel like home education for us, and it sounds like for you too, gave you a space to go deeper and to slow down, to listen to your intuition. And this is where external factors like schools and sports and over-scheduling our life as a family does not provide the space needed.
Victoria Lenormand (1:10:20)
Thank
Thanks.
Julieta Duvall (1:10:33)
to find out what works for us as a family. So we are doing what works for society, for our families to fit in into society. We're doing the school, we're doing the sports, we're doing the more the better. And there is no time. You come home exhausted, I mean, from everything and there's no space for anything for us to connect with our bodies, with our children, as family members.
Victoria Lenormand (1:10:51)
and
Julieta Duvall (1:11:00)
And there's no space for listen to that intuition. There's a little voice. I think it's always there, But if we don't hold space like you did for it to drop in that how, should we be in school? And like you said, that should, I feel like it creates this invisible walls around us and it doesn't allow us to see what is possible. So it's how can I shift?
Victoria Lenormand (1:11:03)
Yeah.
.
Julieta Duvall (1:11:26)
How can I move away from this direction? That is clearly not serving me or my child when you're being called at every other day from the school. So you're shifting and you move, you guys moved into the motor home, right?
Victoria Lenormand (1:11:42)
Yeah, we decided to... that was a Cacao moment in the morning and as you said, didn't arrive that morning, didn't arrive that evening in a meditation. It arrived a few mornings later as I was waking, just as I was waking up, was like, the motorhome.
Julieta Duvall (1:11:49)
Mhm. Mhm.
I know.
Victoria Lenormand (1:12:03)
And then it just started racing as actually, why not? Your eldest is heading to university. Or you could drop him at university. It would be really easy to move all of his things in the motorhome. So we could get the motorhome on the ferry, take him where he needs to be. And why not continue a journey of exploration afterwards to show William that this world is not a scary place. And it's terrifying as he's been led to believe. It's a place where he can come and discover.
And once he learns how to discover, he'll learn how to learn. And it won't be so scary as the book. The book in front of him was a no-go. I'll do the computer work that's set by the teacher, but if you put a book in front of me, I'm not too keen, because there's a partial fail aspect that I've now associated with that book. And I don't like the idea of failing. I don't like the idea of not spelling something properly and...
Julieta Duvall (1:12:52)
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:12:58)
no amount of persuasion from me or assurance from me that I wasn't going to be looking at his spelling. just wanted, you know, it'd just be nice if we sat here and wrote together a complete block. We have an awful lot of blocks to shift at the very beginning. We found ways through it, just joining him where he was, wherever he was, if he was exploring something or he wanted to know something, we would just take that as the, okay. So it didn't leave an awful lot of room for considering work at that point. And in order
do that and to fund living in the motorhome we rented out our house and thought we'll rent out the house and we'll go explore this and see if it works. We're prepared to be wrong, we're prepared to give it a go, we're just going to give it a go. Lots of fear from our environment around what that looked like. You could lose your home, you could do this, know, what if they damage everything, what if the van breaks down, do you have enough of a budget for this, know, can you live this life?
Julieta Duvall (1:13:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:13:59)
just going to take a deep breath and we're trying. And we are like, yeah, so we rented the house out for a year. We some amazing friends who said, listen, if it doesn't work out, come and stay here with us. We're very, very lucky. And it's amazing how these kinds of things come out of the woodwork, things that, you know, you're a good person. You've always been there for us.
Julieta Duvall (1:14:02)
Yeah. We're just gonna try it.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:14:27)
let us be here for you right now, you're going to this transition, you think, wow, thank you so much, that's incredible. And so we tried and we modeled getting it wrong. And we modeled what worked well. And we let him watch. I think Will spent most of that first year watching, observing, you know, us getting it right and getting it wrong and being okay with that. You know, just being okay with that.
Julieta Duvall (1:14:31)
Wow.
That is so beautiful.
Victoria Lenormand (1:14:56)
And, you know, he was saying, oh, mommy, you, gosh, you burnt this dinner. was like, yeah, never cooked on this before. I didn't even go very well, did it? So we're going to chuck that out. And we're going to look at it another way. Should we try it again? Should we try the same thing again? Or do you think, you know, what did I learn from that? Did I, I've learned the porridge. Um, you know, I didn't mean to burn the porridge. I left it trying to multitask at a time when I shouldn't have been. So here I am now. I'm going to pay attention and hey, porridge.
Julieta Duvall (1:15:06)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:15:25)
you know, we're good. it's all of those things, that it's letting him laugh and then doing, hang on, that wasn't very kind. I didn't mean it like that. I said, no, it's OK. I understand. Because it's actually quite funny. So sometimes you can laugh and it's OK. It's funny. And other times, it feels like you're not being kind when you're laughing. Maybe that's not the time to laugh. It's OK to stop yourself and go, well, sorry, that didn't sound very kind, exactly as you did.
Julieta Duvall (1:15:38)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:15:53)
Because you suddenly
remember the time when someone laughed at you and it made you feel bad. So you're in those moments, aren't you? Straight away, you're in there. And it's come up organically and naturally. And you can help it at that point. You can serve it. You can serve the seer and help him go through it rather than avoid it. It's just amazing.
Julieta Duvall (1:15:58)
my goodness, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Yes, yes. And it
really is at its own timing though, right? Because I know all of the learning that we have done since we began on this journey, I know that I wasn't ready to learn that all at once. And I think that is the process of this journey and often.
when people, when I see and I feel like I was there too, this is just, my own experience. Like I felt like I wanted to know everything. I wanted to get it right from the beginning. And I didn't give myself the space to kind of like go through it and build the foundation that upon something that I learned, something else would come and would like solidify that knowledge and that trust in myself as a person and as a parent.
and then pass it on to my children to trust them that they will find their own path with our help in our support to make mistakes because mistakes are really aren't welcome in the school system, right? Like you're not supposed to, if you make a mistake, it's bad. And yes, you get a failing grade and then we strive for perfection.
Victoria Lenormand (1:17:23)
Thanks.
Julieta Duvall (1:17:31)
but there is no learning in that perfectionism, right? Like the learning happens from the experiencing, not a failing and not a mistake, it's just an experiment and it's just experiencing that moment or that experience or whatever you're going through, there's always a learning in all of it, all of it.
Victoria Lenormand (1:17:52)
I think that is such a beautiful thing and it's something I thought was more common, more, it's certainly been an intrinsic part of my life. I don't, I'm not afraid to do something new. I've never really been a person that feels afraid to do new things. I think I'm here for the experience and I'm here to take the learning out of it. So it was an incredibly difficult thing for me to manage watching this.
Julieta Duvall (1:18:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:18:20)
paralyzed child from learning, the idea that he'd been paralyzed from learning and learning wasn't going to be a joy for him. We couldn't have been more opposite at that particular point. And I thought, to me, there's no mistakes. There's just learning. I just learned how not to do that. I just learned how to do things. I just learned how that goes better. But even when I first joined policing.
Julieta Duvall (1:18:35)
It's just learning. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:18:47)
I was really, really fortunate to have a beautiful teacher who takes all the learning you get from the classroom about the law and everything else and helps you apply it on the street. So you're getting that deeper level of understanding. And I have probably the most patient person on the planet, which I'm just so grateful for. And he said to me, you should be reflecting on your day. If you take the time to reflect on your day and what went well and what didn't go well.
and why something went well and why it maybe didn't go well and adjust it next time. He because you're growing into a unique, we need individuals in fiction. We don't need robots, we need individuals because individuals serve a community. Robots don't, know, robots task orientate beautifully but they don't meet the nuance of the individual that you're talking to.
Victoria Lenormand (1:19:43)
and this
individual's problem that you can connect with in the way that only another human being can, that's what they need you to show up as. They need you to show up as the person that is ready to connect and understand with what the issue is. And it was a beautiful learning experience that I took throughout my career, but I honestly thought everybody got it. I thought everybody, I'd just learned something late that everybody else already knew. That's what I thought at the time.
Julieta Duvall (1:20:11)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:20:11)
So, what's this happen with my child having this understanding that was actually a core value I held that had never been met with him because I was constantly fighting with the system that was trying to kick it out of him. That's less than helpful, isn't it? It's less than helpful. But the reflective practitioner is what Taffy used to call it, the reflective practitioner. And he was so right.
Julieta Duvall (1:20:23)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:20:39)
It's something I have taken all the way through now because I find it serves me and it's what I meet my clients with now is this reflective practitioner to say this is, but it's not even a, it wasn't until I sat with Cacao that I realized that that was a thing. It was just something.
Julieta Duvall (1:20:55)
That that was a thing. Yes, this is.
I mean, it really is, though, but there isn't any time to reflect sometimes in the way we live our lives. know, there is no time of reflection to really allow the deeper learning and that deeper understanding of what's working for you and your family to come out sometimes. And I I fight that a lot nowadays, I see things differently now.
Victoria Lenormand (1:21:06)
Please.
Julieta Duvall (1:21:20)
but I'm like, I like to advocate for my time now, because time is all we have. And I tell people, if you're lucky to live 80 years, you have about 29,000 days. I think it's 29,600 or something like that. But you, that's all we get in this beautiful life. That's all we get. So do I want to spend, on a,
Victoria Lenormand (1:21:42)
Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (1:21:45)
wheel that doesn't serve me or my child or my family. I did for a little while, but that is not the way I want to live right now.
Victoria Lenormand (1:21:55)
You see that I feel exactly the same. It's that that reflective practitioner has come in to look, to reflect on everything that came before this difference, this not fitting in, everything that came before not fitting in, to reflect on the entire experience. And I'm not reflecting on today or yesterday. I'm reflecting on all of that. And I'm reflecting on William's journey over a period of time. Because if I look at it every day,
Julieta Duvall (1:22:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:22:24)
Sometimes you really kick yourself thinking, I'm not doing enough. Is this OK? We all go there. We all go there. And I think we have to honor that in ourselves, the idea that we've been told it looks a certain way. So it takes a little while to unpick that. And it's not overnight. It didn't happen the day one of home education. It never happened then. And it went through a huge journey of, let's try this. OK.
Julieta Duvall (1:22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:22:52)
tweak that, that one needs to be, that needs to, okay, okay. And none of it was failing. It was all about learning, learning what works. It's just, and the learning is just the shallow tip of what's happening because that deep understanding is what you're actually forming underneath is that I'm learning what works and what doesn't work here because I'm seeing where the understanding is actually going in. Cause that's the bit that
Julieta Duvall (1:23:00)
learning. Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:23:21)
We've got kids that can pass papers but don't actually understand the fundamental thing that is sat behind it. They're not making the connection with where it goes. So if you teach a child to an exam, I passed it, but hey, I don't know what it means. I don't know where I apply it.
Julieta Duvall (1:23:36)
Yes, and that's what we see, you know,
and schools often call it the summer slide right? there's a regression in learning. mean, that is the, I mean, that is essentially the reason why, because there's no understanding. They are aiming for that reward of getting a good grade. And there's not the fundamental, they're not, they're not understanding. And they may not be in that point to understand that. So they're not interested in that.
Victoria Lenormand (1:23:53)
That's it.
Julieta Duvall (1:24:02)
that isn't what they need at that moment.
Victoria Lenormand (1:24:05)
And learning it when they get into the workplace that actually I've got this, but I don't understand how that actually applies. How does it work? I've got my tax form to fill out. I did really, really well in math, but I do not understand what this is and how this works. Well, how many people enter the workplace or business or something and actually understand that form? It changes every year.
Julieta Duvall (1:24:07)
Mm-hmm.
how that works, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah.
Yeah.
my gosh.
Victoria Lenormand (1:24:31)
You really
have to understand it to understand why it's changing all the time. And you think, this is an incredible thing.
Julieta Duvall (1:24:35)
Mm-hmm.
It really is though. my gosh. I feel like we can keep talking forever. But let me ask you, where are you guys at now? So the book just came out. So it's been a couple of years since you guys been out of the school system and kind of experimenting what works for you guys.
Victoria Lenormand (1:24:42)
Amazing.
Julieta Duvall (1:24:54)
I use human design just like Tori. It helped. It changed my life. It really did. It really, really did. It really pushed my home education journey onto a different level because I was able to understand myself and much of the deschooling process is about ourselves as parents Our children are pure and they are who they are.
They are not asking permission. They don't need to. we as adults have been conditioned and human design helped me break that conditioning. But briefly tell me, William's human design is Manifestor
a manifestor initiate and they have their own thing going. So they are here to initiate and how learning human design and seeing that manifestor because their not self of a manifestor. Like when you're out of alignment is anger and anger is not acceptable in our society. So a manifestor, they're
Victoria Lenormand (1:25:35)
Mm-hmm.
Julieta Duvall (1:25:52)
When they're in alignment, it's peace. And when they're out of alignment, it's anger. So it shows up in different ways. how has human design helped you with that anger piece through the healing process as you guys moved out of the school system and moved into the motor home and traveled and went on a cruise and experienced all kinds of things? So how those pieces work?
to bring you to where you're at right now in this particular moment in life.
Victoria Lenormand (1:26:22)
it's incredible. It has been an incredible discovery and a much kinder language than a lot of the autism language that we hear around. The thing is, it also resonates so much more than the autism language we hear about William. The autism language has gone very much down the lines of, well, he's not typically this or typically that. And I'm thinking, yes, but he is here. This is where he is. And what he does...
Julieta Duvall (1:26:28)
Mm-hmm.
okay. Yes, okay, yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:26:49)
as a blueprint, as he fits that Manifestor profile, just wow, was a real eye-opener for me. So I'm a manifesting generator. His energy obviously working a little different. The first thing I understood is where the exhaustion was coming from in trying to fit. In trying to help him.
Julieta Duvall (1:26:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, me too.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:27:15)
with the whole fitting thing, know, teachers and ourselves at various points are actually taking him out of the self, the peace that he was in. It turns out he's peacefully happy and he's playing and he's lining things up and he's doing his thing. The minute we interrupt that cycle, we're meeting anger. Now I understand why. So, an ability to live together harmoniously, for an ability to understand each other on a much deeper level.
Julieta Duvall (1:27:25)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:27:44)
Human design has just been incredible for us as a family. So I understood his energy works very differently. He's not here to build, he's not here to work in the same way I'm here to work. So when he says to me, mommy, my shoes, can you get my shoes? I'm actually hearing now, I'm not lazy, I genuinely don't have the energy for this, but I can actually, I'm hearing it differently. It's not a, it's not a, I,
Julieta Duvall (1:27:46)
Yeah.
No, correct.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:28:12)
won't, it's a, I genuinely can't right now. So you start to hear different, for me the communication has been massive in supporting that deeper understanding of each other, that respect for each other and where we are. Which again, I think that creates the harmony in your environment, isn't it? It's when you respect each other, it's like, this is where you are right now, it's fine.
Julieta Duvall (1:28:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:28:41)
I see the initiator. I see that he's here to really get things started. And he does. just, he definitely marches to a completely different tune, always has. I'll tell you a story. He wanted to go canoeing one day. His brother had come back from canoeing and he wanted to go canoeing. And I said, not today. We're going for a walk along the beach, but there's no canoeing. I turn around to buy a cup of coffee and he's halfway across the beach, you know? And I saw...
I'm thinking, okay, I'm just going to get this and I turn around again and he's paddling out to sea in a canoe.
Julieta Duvall (1:29:18)
GASP
Victoria Lenormand (1:29:18)
and a
man is running up the beach and I'm thinking, oh gosh, here we go. said, Mrs. Lenormand Mrs. Lenormand. I'm like, oh, I'm not sure it's good or bad that he knows me. But I hope he didn't mind I lent William my canoe. He's really good. He's just naturally, he seems to be really good. like, yeah, anything outdoorsy that one, anything outdoorsy. And there he is paddling off towards France.
Julieta Duvall (1:29:22)
my
Oh my goodness. Yeah, he needed it in that moment. And that's what he went. He got it. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:29:49)
He needed it in the moment and he made it. He made it happen.
It was the same with, I need not to be at school. I need not to be at school. And I'm asking him to work with me around what this might look like. He's learning how to change that anger in the not-self into that spark that gets something going. He's learning that that anger is a boundary that has been crossed.
Julieta Duvall (1:30:13)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:30:18)
He's got a boundary. He's feeling angry. Something needs to change. And he's learning to get to what needs to change right now for me not to feel this. know, this is my... There you go. Understanding that he's also here to provoke anger has been a big revelation for me as well, because I'm not an angry person. I don't... I've spent my lifetime controlling and managing these emotions.
Julieta Duvall (1:30:30)
to move out of this space.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:30:46)
presenting
to my other people and myself, not having angry responses. And yet, I mean, you do this to me. Exactly.
Julieta Duvall (1:30:52)
Because they're not allowed. They're not acceptable. Yes, they're not acceptable.
yeah, they're not acceptable.
Victoria Lenormand (1:30:59)
William,
between William and Cacao, I understand anger in a very different way to the unacceptable thing that I've always been taught it is. And I don't know if you hear Dr. Gabor Mate talking about it. It's incredible, isn't it? And William really has been the gift that has shown me that anger can initiate, you know, used correctly.
Julieta Duvall (1:31:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, I love his work, yes.
Hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:31:29)
anger is a powerful tool to be able to start something. And sometimes he's starting it in himself, and sometimes he's starting it in others. And if he's provoking anger, it's normally, it's because he's starting something, but from his not-self. And what he needs to work through is that instead of provoking the anger, can I get it to the point where I'm asking the question of
Julieta Duvall (1:31:33)
Yes.
I got you.
Victoria Lenormand (1:31:59)
What is it that needs to change? Because I'm feeling anger. What is it that needs to change for this person because they're feeling anger? And it's not easy by any stretch. And a lot of the time, I'm doing that work because I don't think he can, or certainly can't at the moment. But this is what we're working towards is that anger's the initiator. Peace is I've initiated. I've done everything I need to do. I'm here.
Julieta Duvall (1:32:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:32:28)
The anger is actually the spark that starts the change. you think, actually, that's a whole different way to look at anger.
Julieta Duvall (1:32:32)
The urge, yes, the urge to, yeah,
it really is though. I have, my younger son is a quad right. So I have learned to be a little bit different, because there's a lot of that flow, like if he's into something and if that something gets interrupted, I am met with anger because it is, it won't come back to him, whatever he's doing, that inner vision.
Victoria Lenormand (1:32:49)
Thank
Julieta Duvall (1:32:59)
won't come back to him. So I am disrupting his process. So, but again, it has taken time. I mean, I came to human design back in 2021 and it really changed. It really changed everything. but it's a tool that has helped us see the, like you said, use a different language, and use a positive language that allows us to expand and feel into what is within us versus trying to,
fit into a system that wasn't designed to meet my needs, right? I am here to meet my own needs and I am here to support my children in meeting their own needs so they can also figure out what their needs are and then make sure that their inner self is full, full of love, full of contentment and understanding that when they are good, the rest of the world is good too. And it is beautiful.
And I just want to close up now, tell me, so now this is what you do. You help families find this flow of this rhythm that works from a place of inner wisdom, inner knowledge, right? What are you working on?
Victoria Lenormand (1:34:12)
So I've got several projects on the go at the moment.
Julieta Duvall (1:34:16)
Yes, Mani Geni at its best, you guys. This is what we do several projects
at once. However, they all make sense and they all have a theme and they all connect to each other in one way, in a beautiful way. So what's what's happening right now?
Victoria Lenormand (1:34:33)
So right now I'm writing again, but I'm collaboratively with two other ladies about the workbook of respecting the self and the growth cycles. We're working on a series of stories that hopefully will come out with a workbook as well so that people can work alongside it. But in the meantime, I have coaching sessions, classes that I offer as well as lunar spaces like
Julieta Duvall (1:34:45)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:35:02)
circles and that to people who just need somewhere to put, because I needed somewhere to just put that safely. So you can drop into those circles. So I hold the space for these people to come in and just go, you know, this is going horribly wrong without judgment. We don't need that. We're already judging ourselves harshly enough. We've been conditioned to. So it's a space where you can come along with your Cacao.
Julieta Duvall (1:35:08)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:35:30)
sit in circle, just be held, just feel what you're feeling and give yourself that time to shift it, to move it, to just do what you can. People will only offer support if you actually want it, if you ask for it. Otherwise it's just left there in the ether to do what it does. So we have circles which are completely free and we offer those as completely free spaces for people. We have coaching programs for
Julieta Duvall (1:35:39)
Hmm.
dope yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (1:36:00)
you know what, ready to move, ready to shift, but I don't know where to start. So we get back to your values. Let's get back to the values. There's things that matter to you. Let's discover those, uncover those, and then let's work from that. So yeah, they're the projects that I'm working on at the moment is these spaces and places. And I'm teaching a little bit about human design with a few people that are interested in knowing a little bit more about the gates. So.
Julieta Duvall (1:36:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:36:28)
As I'm going through and learning the gates, it's kind of like a collective group that are going through the gates together to look at, yeah, this is active here and this is, you know, is happening here. Just try and make it a little bit more common as a language for people because it is so much kinder, so much needed to reach out to say, I see you. I see you in this expression of this getting.
Julieta Duvall (1:36:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
It is.
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:36:56)
You know, I see
Julieta Duvall (1:36:56)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria Lenormand (1:36:57)
you in yourself right now and I'm going to judge you for it. I just know that that's where you are. And it's fine, because that's where you are right now. It doesn't mean that's where you're going to be forever more. Right now, this is what's up for you.
Julieta Duvall (1:37:01)
Yes.
Right now. Mm hmm. Mm That's a big that.
Yeah, this is what's showing up right now, though. And my goodness, there's so much goodness here, though. So we will have all of Tori's links in the show notes and then that you can reach out to her if you need to. Her book is amazing. I highly recommend it.
Victoria Lenormand (1:37:12)
Yeah.
Julieta Duvall (1:37:27)
I love Tori's book and I think I wrote it in my review. think it's like, it really is a contemporary account of what families are going through in the post COVID era of home education. And in my opinion, in my humble opinion, I see that there's a huge shift in the post.
COVID era of families that are choosing a different way of life. And I think it was already happening prior to COVID, but really COVID was a it's a huge marker in how people are really choosing to live a life that suits them and their children and not the system. Tori, I can't thank you enough for being here. I know we could go.
Victoria Lenormand (1:38:13)
Thank you.
Julieta Duvall (1:38:18)
a little further because we didn't touch on the cruise and the experiences of William being with a whole bunch of other people, but you guys, highly recommend the book. You can read about that story about their cruise in the book and see the shift. And again, it's not a you should do this, but it's an experience. It is someone's story.
that if you resonate with it could spark you into changing your own story. Tori, any last words for people that may hear and resonate and like, I was there. What would you say to them as they're starting to shift their narrative and their story and their life?
Victoria Lenormand (1:39:04)
If I trust yourself first, absolutely trust yourself. It's a message. It's there. It's for you. And I think you're probably absolutely spot on, regardless of what anything else is happening around you. The rest is just noise. Trust your feelings. Maybe switch up your coffee or your caffeinated drink for Cacao, because you'll find a friend and a lot of support. And if you want to know anything about Cacao, then just, again, hit me up.
We give lots of free talks about Cacao and what's good Cacao and what's chocolate. There is a difference. So what you're looking for and just check in with that feeling that you've got because it's probably right. It's trying to lead you somewhere wonderful. You can just come back to your values. It's not about money. This is about, this is about wealthy life. Live well, a wealthy life I think it's about, can you feel well living?
Julieta Duvall (1:39:39)
Yes.
Victoria Lenormand (1:40:01)
which feels good and then everything else just floats.
Julieta Duvall (1:40:05)
Yes, everything is just flows So thank you so much, Tory I appreciate you so, much. Thank you so much for everyone out there. Please remember that your time is precious. I hope you're making count. See you next time. Thank you.
Victoria Lenormand (1:40:08)
Thank you.
🌟Connect further with Tory 🌟
Website https://geminidirections.co.uk
Keiths Cacao - orders and further information can use my intro link https://www.keithscacao.com/discount/VictoriaLenormand
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🌟Connect further with Julieta🌟
FB Community https://www.facebook.com/groups/1203982244031878
GET YOUR HUMAN DESIGN CHART https://humandesigndecoded.com/ref/julietad/?campaign=Podcast
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Helpful links
🔗https://childreninscotland.org.uk/we-want-scotland-to-become-the-worlds-first-child-friendly-country/
#Unschooling #Podcast #Inspiration #Unschooling #Parenting #MindfulParenting #EducationRevolution #ShiftYourLife #CreativeLearning #FamilyJourney #Inspiration #PodcastEpisode #LifeOutsideTheBox #ConsciousParenting #AlternativeEducation #EmpoweredParenting #LearningWithoutLimits #BuildingBrighterFutures #autism #education #home education #child-centered learning #behavior management #nutrition #schoolsystem #mental health #parenting #personalgrowth #humandesign #cacao
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